please empty your brain below
And who's paid for this restoration? Was it Bill or was it Ben? ;-)

Dave | 07.03.16 - 7:13 a.m. | #

The time is something I'm not sure about, it's now 44 years since the Golden Arrow last ran, the Night Ferry last ran in 1980, the relevance of Victoria for Paris is lost on many people - if the time thing was to be retained then the clock should have been relocated to St. Pancras instead and something new put up at Victoria.

| 07.03.16 - 7:39 a.m. | #

I do get upset when I see public clocks not working, they often seem to be negleted these days.

I was trying to find out who built Sunbury Clock, which I do not think was Gillett and Johnson. Maybe someone here knows.

John | 07.03.16 - 7:55 a.m. | #

"isn't really called Big Ben at all"
It is, but that is not its name. Read the conversation with the White King in "Through the Looking Glass" for the difference between something's name and what it is called.

@Anon 0739"
Victoria is still the setting-off point for Paris, and many other places besides, if you are travelling via Gatwick - or indeed by coach, as VCS is just round the corner.

"But I'd hope that someone sees sense and shifts the hands forward an hour before the clocks go back, "
I expect the hands will be moved forward later this month, along with most other clocks. What I think you are hoping for is that the hands not be put back again when all the other clocks do so in October.

timbo | 07.03.16 - 8:21 a.m. | #

Timbo

As you said, 'Victoria is the setting off point for Paris and many other places besides via Gatwick'.

The raison d'etra of Victoria was that the whole train went to Paris, that fundamental link with France has gone, but is now maintained at St. Pancras International - where a clock fixed permanently at British Summer Time makes sense.

It also wins on the airport argument, not only can you can get to Gatwick - but also Luton from Kings Cross Thameslink plus Heathrow via the Piccadilly Line.

| 07.03.16 - 9:00 a.m. | #

It's Smiths of Derby, not Smith and Derby. Not often I get to correct DG!

dg writes; Fixed, thanks.

RogerB | 07.03.16 - 9:16 a.m. | #

I think the Mayor should set up a bursary to get all public clocks fixed and I mean those privately owned too. Maybe the injection of some cash will get some of our fantastic timepieces showing the correct time.

Running Corespondent | 07.03.16 - 9:19 a.m. | #

Pedants' corner: I think you mean 10 x 10 x 10 = 1,000 times smaller than Big Ben.

dg writes: No, I meant 10 times shorter. It really is pedants' corner today!

Bryn Davies | 07.03.16 - 9:30 a.m. | #

All very interesting, this has diverted me for quite some time, reading about the Victoria station upgrade again, looking at maps of Bletchingley etc. Thankyou.

Going off a slight tangent does anybody know why the 5/7 split for DST/BST? The start of BST is clearly close to the vernal equinox, but the end is about a month after the autumnal equinox.

Is it something very mundane like the traditional length of the working day? Or we just like BST? But if so why not extend it even further to, say, November??

dg writes: There's a post about asymmetric BST here, and the subject's been raised in comments several times since, so not today :)

Lorenzo | 07.03.16 - 10:00 a.m. | #

This reminds me of the clock tower on the Balmoral Hotel, above Waverley Station in Edinburgh. It's historically been set several minutes fast, so that people don't miss their trains and (as far as I'm aware) this tradition has always been respected despite the accuracy of modern portable timepieces.

James | 07.03.16 - 10:49 a.m. | #

Re the comment at 9:00 a.m. "the whole train went to Paris". That can't be right, surely? The passengers would have had to get off the Golden Arrow at Dover, take the Channel ferry, and then board the Fleche d'Or to Paris.

Great Aunt Annie | 07.03.16 - 11:00 a.m. | #

If we are going to have a pedant's corner then "ten times shorter" is meaningless mathematically incorrect waffle emanating from the advertising industry that has unfortunately caught on. "A tenth of the size" would be the correct description in proper English.

Pedantic of Purley | 07.03.16 - 11:39 a.m. | #

I believe that the name St Stephen's Tower was the name that Victorian journalists erroneously gave to the Clocktower. St Stephen's Tower is actually another tower completely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Westminster#Towers

Steve | 07.03.16 - 11:52 a.m. | #

I was moved to look to see when there'll be some new part of the tube station opening - apparently the Northern Ticket Hall (the newer bit) will actually be opening in 2016, which is exciting, as I thought it was later than that - though the only hint of "when" during 2016 is "Winter 2016" on one of the TFL factsheets - I take it that when I see "Winter" on one of those timelines, it's a way of saying "December"?

Phil J | 07.03.16 - 12:12 p.m. | #

Great Auntie, there was a service where the train carriages went onto the boat, I think it was a night service and the passengers boarded at Victoria and slept their way to Paris.
Customs and immigration checks being done at Victoria.
I think getting the track and ship lined up caused problems depending on the tide, a special dock being used at Dover.
I knew someone who worked on the night train service, he loved the job.

The tunnel saw the service end.

John

John | 07.03.16 - 12:24 p.m. | #

@John -- the service ended long before the Channel Tunnel. As DG says above, the last direct sleeper was in 1980.
All the sleeper carriages were shunted onto the boat at Dover, and then in Calais they were attached to a French engine and taken off to Paris Gare du Nord.
I took the service once, a few weeks before it closed. But on the way out the weather was so bad the ferry couldn't dock in Dover harbour so the train spent the night in the sidings. We finally left around breakfast time (which meant I could get some pictures of the loading and unloading process) and got to Paris mid-afternoon.
The return, a couple of days later, was on time.
There used to be a similar service, with the train going on board a ferry, in Denmark, across the Great Belt, and that was replaced when they build a fixed crossing.
The only such service left in Europe is across the straits of Messina between mainland Italy and Sicily.

Alan Burkitt-Gray | 07.03.16 - 12:36 p.m. | #

@Gt Aunt Annie
As you say, the Golden Arrow service, like the modern Orient Express, uses two separate trains to connect with a passenger ferry. However, the Night Ferry's vehicles did actually cross the channel.

Photos of the Night ferry are rare (the clue is in the word "Night!") but some decidedly continental-looking Wagons-Lits cars seen here at Victoria [jpg]

Photos of the train actually on board a ship are eve harder to find, but here is a 1936 poster advertising the launch of the service [jpg]

This is how it was done (photo of freight train taken in daylight) [jpg]
Two trains had to be loaded simultaneously to keep the ship in balance.

Diversion ends

timbo | 07.03.16 - 12:54 p.m. | #

John: you mean there were French customs and immigration officials working in central London in the early 20th century? Without the EU or anything?! Quelle horreur! How did we survive, etc.

Andrew | 07.03.16 - 12:55 p.m. | #

Alan is mistaken. The Vogelfluglinie still carries trains on ferries between Roedby (Dennmark) and Puttgarden (Germany). I have been on it. But it is due to end in 2021.

Malcolm | 07.03.16 - 1:02 p.m. | #

The phrase "ten times shorter" is often seen, not just in advertising, and it can be considered mathematically acceptable by viewing "shortness" as "reciprocal length". Spectacles can be "ten times stronger" (using dioptres) or have a tenth of the focal length.

Malcolm | 07.03.16 - 1:08 p.m. | #

...I'm just glad to see it back ...whatever time it displays and whatever size relation it is to any other clock in London

Grumpy Anon | 07.03.16 - 1:25 p.m. | #

Technically, Big Ben is called Big Ben even though it isn't named Big Ben.

Technically, Big Ben is beyond one end of Victoria Street, and Little Ben isn't quite at the other end.

Technically, to the nearest whole number, Little Ben is eleven times shorter, not ten.

Technically, Little Ben was absent from its road junction for four years and one month, not four years.

...and that's just in the first paragraph.

Technically, the whole post is full of mild generalisations and slight inaccuracies.

Technically not everything that all of today's commenters have posted is completely correct either.

If any of this has affected your enjoyment of today's feature, please contact me for a full refund.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 07.03.16 - 2:08 p.m. | #

No need for a refund DG - on the contrary, your content is much more interesting than most stuff you find behind paywalls. Would you rather no-one was in a position to comment because only web-crawling bots were reading it?

I remember it being re-installed last time round, when I was at Victoria rather more often than I am now. Indeed, I didn't realise it had gone again.

timbo | 07.03.16 - 3:05 p.m. | #

Alan is mistaken part two...

Unlike the Golden Arrow, the Night Ferry ran to Dunkirk not Calais.

I remember a wonderful foggy night on board when the first class passengers were fast asleep in their sleepers while those of us in second class spent the journey in the bar drinking jenever.

It's simply not so atmospheric or romantic on the Eurostar!

ap | 07.03.16 - 3:39 p.m. | #

Technically...we all worry too much about being/others being (completely) correct all/most of the time. That does include those who seem to have a need to point-out others bad grammar/poor spelling. Still we are all "only" human, right?

E | 07.03.16 - 3:41 p.m. | #

Perhaps a stupid question, does it chime?

dg writes: I don't believe so. [evidence]

OnTheBus | 07.03.16 - 5:42 p.m. | #

I used to like the old Guinness clock in Battersea park and the original clock on the Swiss Centre before they pulled the building down.

John | 07.03.16 - 6:22 p.m. | #

DG, look upon the "technical" comments as compliments - it shows how much we care

Caz | 07.03.16 - 7:10 p.m. | #

"dg writes: There's a post about asymmetric BST here, and the subject's been raised in comments several times since, so not today :)"

Thanks. I should've guessed.

Lorenzo | 07.03.16 - 7:20 p.m. | #

I'm enjoying all this engagement in the comments. The elements of this story such as the names of the trains, the precise location of the clock etcetera are so personal to us that we want claim them by participating in the discussion.

And that's a fab 1900 photo. Look at the bloke sitting on the kerb watching the world go by.

Pimlico Pete | 07.03.16 - 8:16 p.m. | #

I remember, as a child, seeing goods waggons being shunted onto a ship in Harwich. I presume bound for Holland. No sure whether there was ever a sleeper service...

Rob | 07.03.16 - 10:10 p.m. | #

The boat trains lasted in a less glamorous version until 1994. I was on the last train to London complete with detonators, the 12 carriages were nearly empty at the end of summer.

Sprout Eater | 07.03.16 - 10:44 p.m. | #

@Rob
As far as I am aware, the London - Dover - Dunquerque - Paris/Brussels service was the only one. There are photographs of passenger carriages, (the caption says an ambulance train) being conveyed across the sea from the WW1 port at Richborough,
http://blog.nrm.org.uk/port-of-richborough-and-the-birth-of-the-cross-channel-train-ferry/but it is not stated whether these were being delivered for use abroad, or actually carrying war-wounded across the sea. If the latter, I would expect big red crosses on the roofs, but there are none.

timbo | 07.03.16 - 11:33 p.m. | #

There was a boat train from Newhaven-Dieppe too which I thought ran until 1976 but I might be wrong about the date. It had its own station - Newhaven Marine - which still boasts a Parliamentary train which dg and others have written about.

Sarah | Homepage | 08.03.16 - 7:31 a.m. | #

I contacted the person I know who worked on the Night ferry, (trains on the ship) service. he sent me this site which has full history and lots of photos of the trains on the ships.
http://www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk/the-night-ferry/

John | 11.03.16 - 7:40 p.m. | #











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