please empty your brain below
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You shouldn't worry about Liverpool Street being in the wrong place on the map.
R4 this morning is reporting that the Meridian is in the wrong place in reality.
Oh well, it will give you somewhere new to walk...
Blue Witch | Homepage | 13.08.15 - 7:07 a.m. | #
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Given all the compromises - why bother to flip over the lines so that Liverpool Street is below Stratford?
| 13.08.15 - 7:13 a.m. | #
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As long as I can get from A to B with decent interchanges and on my Oyster, I am certainly not fussed as to the colour of the line. Sure, I'd expect less frequent trains if it's orange, but aside from that, as you say, ownership is irrelevant. Tsk. I've always loved the London Connections for the reason it embraces all networks without fear not favour.
EskimoPie | 13.08.15 - 7:18 a.m. | #
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This is going to confuse the general public and especially tourists completely - the Overground needs a number or letter system so the relevant line or lines can be shown in the relevant carriages. A bit like the old trains on the Hammersmith & City line and Circle Line which used to just show the Edgware Road to Wimbledon branch of the District Line which they also covered.
Dave B | 13.08.15 - 8:22 a.m. | #
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It could have been worse, they could have tried to include the tfl rail service as well.
Lumma | 13.08.15 - 8:29 a.m. | #
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A friend of mine thinks they ought to start naming and colouring the lines. He'd prefer their historical names (official or unofficial): East London Line, North London Line, Jazz Line (for the trains from Liverpool St, since they were nicknamed Jazz Trains). A problem is that the East London and North London are now slightly misleading (but no more so than the Northern Line). Sounds like that publicity-hound Boris ought to run a naming competition...
Baldassaro | 13.08.15 - 9:06 a.m. | #
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Given the frequent calls to include more lines in Overground, they're going to have to give up on this madness at some point. Aren't they?
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 13.08.15 - 9:15 a.m. | #
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I have no idea why they persist in trying to have a single, London-wide, branding for the Overground, and worse to have them all on the same cramped on-train map.
I'd find it far better to know I could change from the "Overground East" to the "Overground North" at Shoreditch+walk, or Hackney with change at Canonbury onto the "Overground, err, West".
Sykobee | 13.08.15 - 9:19 a.m. | #
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I like the fact that the Romford-Upminster branch appears in its own little box. Like the Shetland Isles on a map.
David | 13.08.15 - 10:12 a.m. | #
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Looks like someone thought, "Oooh that Underground map is a Good Idea!" and then took the concept and applied it to something totally different - hence the mess.
Anyone betting on how long they take to realise it's a Bad Idea and an Even Worse Map?
Modern Manglement!
Bronchitikat | Homepage | 13.08.15 - 10:31 a.m. | #
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And it's not just the maps. Try the tfl journey planner and if your journey includes Overground as mine did earlier this week in the West Brompton area, it had big warnings of a disrupted service.
Clicking on the alert I discovered the trouble was on Overground out of Liverpool Street. I can't think of any reason for delays out of Liverpool Street to affect West London Line services.
Pointless and off-putting for casual travellers who may not know their London rail geography.
ap | 13.08.15 - 11:08 a.m. | #
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Blimey! I think I must have looked at each station on that map twice, before I found Liverpool Street way out there!!!
Living in the NW it's like the Overground doesn't exist anyway, and after seeing this, I'm very thankful we have proper tube connectivity!
Cornish Cockney | 13.08.15 - 11:17 a.m. | #
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Someone's started a petition for TfL to name and colour all the Overground lines to something different:
https://community.sumofus.org/petitions/tfl-name-and-colour-code-each-individual-london-overground-line
Geofftech | 13.08.15 - 11:32 a.m. | #
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An answer is to use screens, not printed maps. They can be refreshed in real time to show the train's current location and the time in minutes to reach all stations on its route. That's what's used in Tokyo on the Yamanote Line.
There are two 15" LCD screens above every doorway.
One shows the map and station information (even showing where the escalators are in relation to your carriage) and the other has travel information, news, weather and silent advertising.
It's easy to read, simple to understand, and it works brilliantly. Just as well, because the printed map is a wee bit complicated...
Gerry | 13.08.15 - 12:06 p.m. | #
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Well I've signed it - but it really should have been done by tfl already - not rocket science is it?
Dave B | 13.08.15 - 12:16 p.m. | #
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Brunel Line (after Marc Isambard, the builder of the Thames Tunnel) (Blue)
Chingford Line (Green)
Emerson Line (Red)
Enfield Line (Purple)
Goblin (Purple)
NW Orbital Line (Orange)
Premier Line (the old nickname for the LNWR out of Euston)(Brown)
(all with central white strip as at present)
timbo | 13.08.15 - 1:55 p.m. | #
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The map will become even more interesting when the London Overground extends all the way to Sevenoaks...
Gerry | 13.08.15 - 4:01 p.m. | #
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That map would be better if the west Anglia Lines were shown as running SE to NW, with LSt somewhere near Shoreditch. You could easily stretch the Goblin (not a new Olympic sport) and shorten the Stratford line to get the interchanges in the right place.
Hardly a silk purse, but better han the sow's ear we have at present.
Whoever designed that, doesn't understand the purpose of a line diagram.
The 378s need to show the NLL, ELL and Watford line
The 172s need to shown the Goblin (and the extensions to Willesden Junction)
The 315s and 317s need to show the Enfield/Chingford and Emerson routes.
Anything else is like putting a Piccadilly Line diagram on S stock - it ain't never going to be there..
timbo | 13.08.15 - 4:36 p.m. | #
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@Blue Witch
"R4 this morning is reporting that the Meridian is in the wrong place in reality. "
I think not - as the meridian is, by definition, the longitude of the cross hairs in the telescope in the observatory, it must be the time that is wrong. Universal time is therefore about half a second fast against true Greenwich time, because the astronomer's telescope wasn't point straight up - the effect may be entirely attributable to the shape of the hill on which the observatory stands, causing a plumb line to point slightly west of directly down towards the axis of the earth's spin.
timbo | 13.08.15 - 4:51 p.m. | #
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The new parts of the TfL network they should have left as a separate bit called either " London Rail or TfL Rail, and not mixed them up with London Underground, its very confusing and in the case of the line from Shenfield, why not just call it crossrail now and save having to rebrand it again later
david s | 13.08.15 - 5:50 p.m. | #
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Off-topic, the 'misplaced' Greenwich Meridian isn't a secret - here's me blogging about it in 2004 :)
The original Journal of Geodesy article explains the non-story much better than any media report.
"The 102-m offset between the Airy Transit Circle and zero longitude indicated by a GNSS receiver is attributable to the fact that continuity in the UT1 time series was maintained in the BIH reference frames, as geodetic longitudes replaced astronomical longitudes when space-geodetic methods were introduced."
diamond geezer | Homepage | 13.08.15 - 7:17 p.m. | #
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While I'd happily go for the Emerson line, if we're coming up with a new set of line names, surely Harry Beck deserves to get in there somewhee?
Brad Emerson | 13.08.15 - 8:39 p.m. | #
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Gerry, don't show TfL that picture of the Yamanote Line train with no seats, they'll get ideas.
Paul III | 13.08.15 - 8:53 p.m. | #
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@Paul III: The Yamanote Line now has seats all the time. The carriages seem wider than the old District Line D78 stock, yet it's only 3'6" gauge.
Sadly, the UK trend seems to be to make trains 'more spacious', i.e. taking many seats out and forcing more people to stand, e.g. the sub-surface 'S' stock has far fewer seats than the Met Line 'A' stock that it replaced.
Gerry | 13.08.15 - 9:14 p.m. | #
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It is sad that London Underground's pioneering network map design clarity has not been picked by TfL.
Showing the Overground lines in Orange Spaghetti doesn't help newcomers nor when there are disruptions.
I suggest using the traditional railway line names, as the Underground has done, for example:
North London Line
East London Line
West London Line
South London Line
the DC Line
GOBLIN
Chingford Line
Cheshunt/Enfield (Chenfield?) Line
Long Branch Mike | Homepage | 13.08.15 - 9:43 p.m. | #
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I really like the "Brunel line" idea - although it's fair to say that both Brunels contributed to the tunnel.
Jim | 13.08.15 - 10:19 p.m. | #
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Oh jolly good a debate about railway maps. A subject on which no one ever agrees and everyone has their own solution.
I trust everyone will toddle off to criticise SWT, Southern, Thameslink and South Eastern for their failure to pick out their individual service patterns with names, colours and letters / numbers / codes / whatever. They're just as guilty as TfL if we're going to be even handed in our criticism.
I agree the lack of spatial integrity on that new Overground map is a mess and potentially confusing but I find trying to navigate the commuter lines south of the Thames far more confusing than the expanded Overground network.
PC | 14.08.15 - 8:33 a.m. | #
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PC - actually, on their websites at least, the main train operators do split their services up. Go to the South West Trains website and you'll see service updates broken down into 13 "services". Likewise Southeastern has 14, Southern 10.
Admittedly C2c doesn't, but their line's pretty simple.
I'm not sure the Overground necessarily needs names, however from a passenger communication point of view it really needs to accept that Overground really has got too big to be just one line item.
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 14.08.15 - 9:25 a.m. | #
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TfL have already given them names, they just chose not to use them. The official names are:
Barking line
East London line
Emerson Park line
Lea Valley line
North London line
Watford local line
Geofftech | 14.08.15 - 10:40 a.m. | #
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Re: An answer is to use screens, not printed maps.
Something like this? lol
https://www.flickr.com/photos/106031775@N04/19958640443/sizes/l
macaronlover | 15.08.15 - 12:06 a.m. | #
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macaronlover,
I was a fan of the automatic line diagrams on some of the New York metro, very clear. You get 10 stops listed then the rest cycled through.
https://m2.behance.net/rendition/pm/5122751/disp/b20c9ac5421d74b715417953ce9b5e59.jpg
Another Andrew | 15.08.15 - 7:31 p.m. | #
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You said "Nobody, I'd argue, gives a damn about the entirety of the Overground network apart from the management who run it." This sounds about right, but prompted me try to find the longest sensible journey that can be done entirely by Overground.
To define "sensible" I looked for journeys that are recommended by journey planner using the default settings.
The longest I could find is Richmond to Barking, but even this is on rare occasions. Most of the time, much more devious routes are suggested rather than Overground.
For long distance journeys, Watford, Croydon and Clapham appear to be no nos as mainline trains are always recommended instead of Overground. Chingford and Enfield are out because journey planner doesn't seem to like changes at Hackney or Walthamstow so you have to go via Liverpool Street.
Anywhere in East London going towards Clapham you are told to change at Canada Water. Even from Surrey Quays,
although it sometimes reluctantly lets you go direct to CJ, it often tells you to back to CW.
It is quite surprising how complicated some of the routes are, sometimes involving around six changes.
kevin clarke | 17.08.15 - 10:27 a.m. | #
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