please empty your brain below
Great work Geezer, love the blog and this is a really great post. Would love to hear about their subsequent response!

David | 28.07.10 - 9:29 a.m. | #

Be interesting to see how many "churnalists" printed or broadcast this nonsense unchallenged? Step forward Phil Space and Philippa Column.

Waterhouse | 28.07.10 - 9:43 a.m. | #

Great post

That they felt they needed to correct you while illustrating how badly they had misinterpreted the figures confirms that they simply were unable to interpret the figures themselves.

If they had set out to lie, why correct your 'mistake'? As you say, they are not numerate. Sad to say, they are not alone.

I wonder if we can find out where they live? I have a wonderful pyramid selling scheme they might like.

will | 28.07.10 - 9:52 a.m. | #

You know what they say... there are lies, damn lies, and statistics! Did anyone really believe that half of north Londoners never cross the river for play? If that's the case, who are all these besuited people in the South Bank, Royal Festival Hall, Butler's Wharf etc? South Londoners who work in the deepest south, then hop on a train after work to socialise along the South Bank? And how come the bridges are busy in both directions night and day?

Statistics are all automated these days, but interpretation of results still requires the use of a good brain.

Tinsie | Homepage | 28.07.10 - 10:00 a.m. | #

A picture paints a thousand words. I went through school without seeing the point of Venn diagrams. I think I can finally see why they are useful. They are for people like PR agencies who just don't understand figures unless they can be visualised.

Pedantic of Purley | 28.07.10 - 10:08 a.m. | #

Love this post - great work!
Keep it up.

Island Resident | 28.07.10 - 10:21 a.m. | #

@Tinsie - while the survey is obviously flawed, can we please stop considering "The South Bank" to be the determiner of what counts as south of the river.

The problem (if such a problem exists) is that many people think the South Bank is all that exists south of the river, and don't notice the vast array of other entertainments that are more than a hundred yards from the Thames.

Incidentally, I live on the north bank of the river - but on a map, I am further south than the South Bank :)

IanVisits | Homepage | 28.07.10 - 10:31 a.m. | #

Speaking of south of the river - anyone know what is up with the Bramah Museum of Tea and Coffee? On a visit to London we searched fruitlessly for it and now I see that their website says 'closed until 2009'. Has it gone?

Antipodean | 28.07.10 - 11:25 a.m. | #

@IanVisits - I agree, there's much more to the South than the Southbank (and Tate Modern). But I'd be interested to know how many of those 93% who come south to play actually go further than those two venues. It may be the case that in surveys like this those two attractions massively skew the stats.

TimR-J | Homepage | 28.07.10 - 11:31 a.m. | #

We do all seemed to have missed the obvious question to ask. If you want to know how many North Londoners never visit South London then why not ask that question in a plain unambiguous way? As soon as you ask different questions then attempt to deduce this from the questions actually asked then you are asking for trouble.

Pedantic of Purley | 28.07.10 - 12:06 p.m. | #

And all this without even going into the sample size, which was just 300. This is so low as to make any results statistically meaningless. For example, '7% of North Londoners never cross the river for play': if half the survey (150 people) are from North London, that means that just ten North Londoners said that they never cross the river for play.

M@ | Homepage | 28.07.10 - 2:00 p.m. | #

Fakes, Lies, Misleading, Probaganda

kaka | Homepage | 28.07.10 - 2:08 p.m. | #

The statement "Half of North Londoners either never cross the river for work or never cross the river for play" would have been more or less true - but highly misleading. Come to that, the statement "Half of North Londoners either never cross the river for work or are currently suffering from at least three sexually transmitted diseases" is also perfectly true since if the first half of the statement is true you can write any kind of rubbish for the second half and it is still true in an either/or (boolean "or") scenario.

Pedantic of Purley | 28.07.10 - 4:05 p.m. | #

either way, "47.7% plus 7%" must be rounded to 55% rather than 54%. Like they care...

dg writes: If the 7% is actually 6.6% (which is perfectly possible), then 47.7% + 6.6% rounds happily to 54%.

Wayne | 28.07.10 - 4:45 p.m. | #

Dear Pedantic - actually I'm told that there are more sexually transmitted diseases SOUTH of the river, particularly in Clapham, (now known as 'The Clap'), because this is where (us) Aussies and also lots of Kiwis now live. So I'm told anyway.

Antipodean | 28.07.10 - 4:52 p.m. | #

Bet they wish they'd never contacted you about it now!! *sniggers*

| 28.07.10 - 5:24 p.m. | #

@Antipodean: The Bramah Tea and Coffee Museum is now the Leyland SDM on Southwark Street, with the muf (no sniggering) street furniture outside it and just along from the cab office under the railway bridge that featured prominently in Dirty Pretty Things.
It looks at first like reverse gentrification, replacing a tea shop and museum with a decorators merchants, but it isn't really. I suppose it's to cater for all the 'doing up' that's going on nearby...

HF | 28.07.10 - 6:13 p.m. | #

On the Southbank question, I'd venture that the true meaning of 'South of the river' isn't really 'South of the river' at all but is actually 'South of Elephant & Castle'.

Gerhard Landy | 28.07.10 - 8:32 p.m. | #

As Waterhouse says, Phil Space and Philippa Column churn out utter tripe all the time...Certain newspaper men seem to think we should stump up cash to get behind a pay wall to read this tripe as well. With luck they'll rapidly go out of business and we can reclaim our brain cells.

B | 28.07.10 - 10:22 p.m. | #

@HF - Ah, I remember that area well... the museum still features on tourist info and there are still multiple 'helpful' official street signs pointing towards it from multiple directions ... so we walked that street a few times trying to find what we thought would be the hidden entrance. Oh well. At least the Brunel Museum made up for it :). And it's Southside...:)

Thank you for taking the time to fill me in!

Antipodean | 29.07.10 - 5:53 a.m. | #

Could I emply this Agency to deal with my accounts and HM Revenue & Customs?


Amused | 29.07.10 - 6:25 p.m. | #

I can't believe we're arguing about what "south of the river" means. If the South Bank isn't representative of "south of the river" then let's pick another location. Lewisham or Caterham or Sydenham. I'd be surprised if even 7% of North Londoners venture that far south, which makes the original research findings sound optimistic.

Tinsie | 30.07.10 - 1:24 a.m. | #

Surely "south of the river" means "anywhere south of the River Thames", by definition. Including the South Bank (and Kew, and Richmond, and North Greenwich, and... etc).

diamond geezer | Homepage | 30.07.10 - 7:45 a.m. | #

river ?

what river ?

tristan forward | 01.08.10 - 3:04 p.m. | #

Well yes I of course on many levels 'South of the river' means exactly what it says - I fully accept that. But I guess I was thinking of South London's true spiritual frontier, which I place squarely in the roundabout of E & C. (PS I speak as a South Londoner.)

Gerhard Landy | 02.08.10 - 7:09 p.m. | #











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