please empty your brain below
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Agreed. What are these health and safety fears of which the Cathedral speak?
Marc | 24.10.11 - 8:00 a.m. | #
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@Marc. The health and safety fears are those imposed by the Cathedral's insurance company, by means of a message saying "Shut your doors or we cancel your insurance cover."
Great Aunt Annie | 24.10.11 - 9:04 a.m. | #
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This takes me back to the protests against cruise missiles outside Greenham Common and other US Air Bases back in the early 80s. It's good to see people being motivated to protest in a sustained way again.
And I've been very impressed by the protestors' spokespeople I've seen on BBC News.
But - how are these people funding themselves? Surely they can't all have 'independent menas'? If they're taking state benefits, aren't they living off the profits of capitalism, which surely ought to be against their principles?
Blue Witch | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 9:05 a.m. | #
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'means' even.
Blue Witch | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 9:06 a.m. | #
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Did you spot their 'Tahir Square' street sign? It looked quite authentic, other than the fact that it said 'City of Westminster' at the bottom.
martin | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 9:24 a.m. | #
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@ Great Aunt Annie.... oh the irony...
@ Everybody else - good for the protestors and more power to them. Their 'we are the 99%' is embarrassingly simplistic (taking into account not differentiation based on first / developing world, class, 'race' and gender, but it does get the point across in the kind of three second media bite that people these days understand.
The protest is only likely to get ugly if the cops move in, or, if it is taken over by some rather vile right wing groups who like a fight at anybody's expense, Let's hope the young uns are too smart to allow that.
Antipodean | 24.10.11 - 9:58 a.m. | #
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I don't normally read the Daily Mail, but someone gave me a copy of the issue from Friday 21 Oct. There was a piece by a guy called Martin Samuel suggesting that the protestors were putting tourists off from entering the cathedral, and it was bound to be hurting them at the tills. He went on to suggest that - if the cathedral did decide to close - the main reason behind any such decision would almost certainly cash-related.
He also passed on a view that the church authorities had been more than a bit naive to have let the whole thing start in the first place.
His thoughts sounded entirely plausible.
RogerW | 24.10.11 - 10:08 a.m. | #
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I assume the cathedral authorities have been leant on by the City of London Corporation, who are paranoid about anything which implies that anyone in London doesn't love bankers from the bottom of their hearts. I went on Sunday too, and agree with your assessment, DG. I also went to the other, smaller camp in Finsbury Square, which might be a better long-term site.
Now I'm just waiting for Boris to comment on the situation, with his usual tact and diplomacy...
Baldassaro | 24.10.11 - 10:11 a.m. | #
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I always like a bit of anarchic partying in the centre of London, but I think there is something that makes me feel very uneasy about this 'protest' claiming it represents 99% of humanity. I can't remember getting a vote on this, but I'm pretty sure I got a vote last year on who forms the Government. Whilst I didn't get the person I voted for, the majority did, and I'm prepared to accept that. The sentence "We are not some special interest group. We are you." almost made me gag on my toast. No, you aren't. If you can't see the supreme arrogance in that statement, and that people might think differently to you, then I certainly don't think you should be trusted to make decisions on behalf of anyone.
I also find it hard dealing with people who have no idea what they want. Call for extra Council tax for houses over £1million, or for us to stop servicing our debts if that's what you want, but an end to capitalism is not a sensible aim. I remember writing about the global anti-capitalist movement at university, and trying to discern their aims. It was impossible, because they don't know themselves. They're just angry.
Tom @ Tired of London | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 10:13 a.m. | #
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@antipodean - quote: "The protest is only likely to get ugly if the cops move in, or, if it is taken over by some rather vile right wing groups who like a fight at anybody's expense... "
Oh please. I'm in Switzerland at the moment, so most of the news coverage of the recent international protests that I saw were concentrated on the ones that took place in Italy, in particular Rome.
I gather the scenes there, however, were pretty representative of what was also happening elsewhere.
There were plenty of ugly scenes, but, as for 'vile right wing groups,' I think you'll find most of the flags and banners were actually... red.
RogerW | 24.10.11 - 10:20 a.m. | #
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A 'conscience' is no use after the event. There is no use protesting. The horse bolted two years ago.
B | 24.10.11 - 10:26 a.m. | #
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From what I gather, the protests seem to have effectively moved from Parliament Square to St Paul's. I can see the points they're making, but I would like to challenge these protesters to think of an alternative system.
The fact that it rewards greed is a fundamental flaw of capitalism, but this is outweighed by the fact that it inspires the entrepreneurship and innovation that has helped the West to develop the wealthiest and most advanced societies in the world, while still looking after things such as human rights. I can't think of another system that does this as effectively.
Andrewh | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 10:36 a.m. | #
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I too have been down there and definitely feel the health and safety excuse is just that, the worthies of St Pauls appear to have been leant on because the usual early demonisation of the protesters didnt work last week.
AndrewH - with respect (and I do mean that rather than saying it in "I'm not being funny" mode) there isn't just a choice between capitalism/communism here, rather that the particularly virulent and unchecked laissez faire capitalism that the Neocons have been pushing for 30 years is so woefully destructive to our world and society.
Time to redraft the rules of engagement I feel.
More power to the Occupy movement.
CF
Chingford Flaneur | 24.10.11 - 11:20 a.m. | #
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My understanding of the Occupy movement is that it's entirely run by consensus and debate, so those of you who've got valid points to make to them can, presumably, go down and make them in person. You never know, you might even come up with something you both agree with.
disgruntled | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 11:46 a.m. | #
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@ RogerW - I am not sure on what basis you can say that Rome is 'representative' of anything. Protests have been taking place in cities all around the world, with different political cultures, social movements, youth cultures and histories. These cultural elements have not as yet been *quite* greywashed by globalism.
Antipodean | 24.10.11 - 12:11 p.m. | #
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perhaps the cathedral closed because, once the police move in, they don't want to give protesters a place to run, the police a place to follow, & then the cathedral gets damaged.
jonquil | 24.10.11 - 1:52 p.m. | #
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There is no logical reason for the cathedral to remain closed, apart from possible insurance troubles mentioned above (and even in that case cathedral is probably not expected to be handled just as, say, a bank branch or a shop).
Most of the side doors are accessible, passages are fenced, the main staircase and entrance are kept clear most of the time. There is almost no rubbish as well, at least not as much as you may expect from this number of people camping.
You may not agree with the protesters but they surely aren't something this building hasn't yet been through without any problems.
Yuriy | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 2:33 p.m. | #
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@ Tom @ Tired of London. I think you have summed my feelings up exactly. I can understand 'angry', but it needs to be balanced with thought out and achievable aims.
Mark Garth | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 4:44 p.m. | #
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Excellent post. As usual the media where I am is more interested in some baseball game going on than what's happening elsewhere, so I hadn't even heard of the protest at St Pauls until I read about it in the Spitalfield Life blog last week!
More power to them.
CornishCockney | 24.10.11 - 8:06 p.m. | #
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Ah cherished freedom of expression. Always seems bonkers to me when folk express their own freedom and in the process stuff somebody else's freedom. Right to protest vs right to practice religion :/ I await the unlikely event that they actually achieve something with baited breath.
SquareBlue | Homepage | 24.10.11 - 10:19 p.m. | #
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In reality these protesters are no more the 99% than the city bankers are. The majority of people aren't there, because they don't agree with them and have lives to live, mouths to feed and jobs to do.
They seem harmless enough, though reports suggest that the tents are rather more present than the inhabitants!
Mikey C | 25.10.11 - 12:32 a.m. | #
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My initial reaction was the same as some of the others here, that protesting without making concrete demands is pointless. Then I started to think ... does anyone really know how to get us out of our current mess in any case? What they are trying to do is actually more valuable in the long run, in that they are trying to kick-start genuine debate about why the present system is so messed up, and how it might be reconstructed in a fairer way. More power to them.
Claire in Osaka | 25.10.11 - 2:36 a.m. | #
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I personally don't believe the protests will achieve anything and they do not represent my views but as long as they are behaving themselves I have no sympathy for the powers in charge of St Pauls.
Amused | 25.10.11 - 3:45 p.m. | #
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