please empty your brain below

Nice to see more rail services. Pity that they could not have used the old Platform 1 (now Platform 0)at Clapham Junction so the interchange would be cross platform.(1 and 2). The way it has now been done by extending old platform 2 and making it two section -1 and 2- means a longish walk along the platform to change trains. They said old Platform 1 was not strong enough to take the weight of trains any more,-it is built above ground over hanging a road-, but I would have thought with a bit of money it could have been strengthened.
The new Circle Line...
One big impact of the Overground has been the upgraded stations. Night vs day in some cases.

Can't wait to see what they do with Peckham Rye.

DG - what proportion of London railway stations are now LO managed? Is it close to half?
London Overground currently manage around 55 out of 357 stations. The new route will add a handful more, plus London Underground manage another 30 National Rail stations.

So a long way from half.

(see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_London_railway_stations )
Back when the Manchester Victoria-Rochdale-Oldham-Manchester Victoria loop existed, there was no differential between the trains other than the destination list, hence I got on the wrong one and spent ages going through Oldham...
Living near Kentish Town West, it's a shame for me that one of the breaks has to be at Highbury and Islington - it would be a superb service to East London for me, and only costs 95p to go to Hoxton! but now I have to change trains, which takes some of the magic off.

Any plans to do an orbital on one train, or is that a bit farfethched?
DG - I am not sure what info the JP has in it but National Rail and the TfL closures list do not show works between Clapham and Olympia on the 9th. There are works south of New Cross Gate and on the Gospel Oak - Barking line. Therefore geekdom should be possible on the Sunday. The first train off Highbury to the SLL is at 0711 as per the National Rail and Open Train Times websites. I'll give you a wave shall I?

Train choice at Clapham Junc should be OK as there are dedicated platforms for each service. Existing users of the WLL have no changes. People using the new line will quickly learn where platform 2 is. Highbury may be more confusing if the SLL service to CJ leaves from platform 2 which is adjacent to platform 7 from which the westbound NLL / WLL departs.
Given how popular the other parts of the Overground have become, I've no doubt that the intermediate stations on the extension will see a rise in traffic. The Overground has certainly been an improvement. I’ve travelled on it and visited places that I never would have dreamt of going to in the past with the old unreliable NR service and dismal stations.

One station that wil be served by the Overground but not shown n the map is Battersea Park. There is a passenger train once a day in each direction:
06:18 Battersea Park to Highbury & Islington
22:17 Highbury & Islington to Battersea Park
Trains will also reverse there if they can't get into Clapham Junction for whatever reason, including planned engineering works.

Regarding platform 0, the timetable (OpenTrainTimes.com) shows the SLL and WLL LO departing from platforms 0-2 at Clapham Junction. Perhaps LO know something we don't :-)

An orbital route with one train would be nice and could be done via the Parliamentary train route from Wandsworth Road to Imperial Wharf if Clapham Junction was missed out. Or, of course, they could just reverse in the platform at Clapham Junction and go to Imperial Wharf.
you say "Highbury and Islington via Clapham Junction in only two trains - fifty minutes each."

The difference is that one way costs more than the other and I'm pretty sure they will always try to charge the "via zone 1" option. So you'll have to hop off at one station in between and use the purple reader to proof you didn't go the right hand section. This will be chaotic...
Herman - The quickest way from Clapham Junction to Highbury and Islington isn't via the Overground, it's via Victoria and the Victoria line - a journey that passes very firmly through Zone 1. I suspect that's the default fare.

PC - I still can't get a firm message on Overground engineering works on Sunday 9th December, but I do now agree that the first orbital journeys will be possible that morning. I've rewritten the middle of the post accordingly, thanks.
I would suggest that the NTIs *should* show Clapham Junction for the service via Willesden Junction, and Wandsworth Road for the one via the East London Line, given the (slight) difference in journey time.

What they'll actually show is left as an exercise for the reader, however...
i would have to argue that the quickest way would actually be to change at Vauxhall between SWT and the Victoria line - less people & hassle and a shorter walk than at Victoria station itself.

am inruiged about the "one train a day" to/from Battersea Park! is this a parliamentary passenger service?
Also.. totally looking forward to the new tube map which will be out in the next month too, and seeing how they squeeze it in/around the Northern and Victoria Lines.

And then imagine it with the Northern Line extension as well, and suddenly how messy the southern part of the map is going to look ...
Geoff, throw in Crossrail and the Croxley Rail Link (finally!) and the TfL cartographers are going to have to throw some real shapes over the next few years to keep the map looking halfway legible.
@ Herman / DG - the fares issue is one that has been exercising me for a while. The default fare is actually the one by Overground and currently does not require "pink" validation because you can use a direct train. From December you will have direct train that also runs via Zone 1 and it would be bonkers to expect people to get off somewhere and validate and then wait 15 minutes for the next SLL service.

If you go via Z1 at the moment you are forced through gatelines and the system looks at those intermediate validations to work out that PAYG would be charged via Zone 1.

Now TfL have two options - they can put up the fare for everyone who travels via Willesden Junction or they can keep the Overground fare as via Z2 only regardless of route. I suspect fares from Highbury to Wandsworth Rd will be via Zone 1 *unless* you go via Clapham Junction via WJ *and* validate at Clapham Junction on a newly installed pink validator. I am assuming TfL will have to install a pink validator to allow registration of cross CJ journeys where the new service opens up new excluding Zone 1 journey opportunties. There are loads of fares charged via Z1 only where it is perfectly sensible, if slow, to travel via the Overground round London to CJ and then change. However there is no financial incentive to do this at present even if you have a Z23 travelcard because the system will dip into your PAYG purse unless you make the effort to exit and then re-enter at CJ thus breaking the journey. This is rather pathetic IMO.
Roger's beaten me, but anyway - there will be no NTI confusion because at no point will two differently-routed trains depart from the same platform. Highbury and Clapham (and Canonbury) all have dedicated ELL/WLL platforms, so you can work out which way you're going by where you are.

TfL have recently uninstalled the platform Oyster readers at CJ - there used to be some, but now you have to go in and out of the ticket barrier. This is a nuisance, especially for someone like me with a South West Trains travel pass but who has to touch in to travel on the Overground.
I so much prefer the map of the Overground I designed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:London_Overground_as_a_circle.svg&page=1
The only time I could see it being a problem is the very rare occasion where the WLL and ELL may use the other line’s platform for whatever reason. E.g. if a WLL train is stuck in platform 1, or if there is a signal / points / route (or whatever) failure, they could route the next WLL into platform 2 if they could fit it in between the ELL service. Or vice versa. Although on these occasions no doubt station staff would be on hand and the destination indicator would show suitable wording.

Mind you, in the case of a WLL problem, they could reverse the WLL trains in platform 17 as they’ve done in the past, which will be even more confusing!
With regards to Zone 1 additional fares:

A Z2-3 travelcard on oyster can be used to travel from Swiss Cottage to Earls Court via Zone 1. I had been travelling via West Hampstead and West Brompton, but needed to go quickly one day and was surprised when no PAYG was deducted, and therefore continued to go via Z1.

This was the case at least until June 2012, after which I needed to exit in Z1.

Any insights as to why this is/was the case and whether something similar might happen with the Shoreditch situation?

Y'know, they might as well just put Shoreditch into Z2, I bet they will get more in fares anyway. And since the demise of OEPs, I have travelled via Shoreditch and then just walked out of the destination station, or even travelled further to an ungated station, except when I had a Z1 travelcard of course.
@ John - no idea about the SC to EC jny not charging via Z1. The default fare is via Z1. To avoid a Z1 fare you must touch a pink validator at West Brompton or Olympia. EC is on the Z12 boundary which is why you can approach from the west and avoid the Z1 fare.

Unfortunately Shoreditch being in Z1 is a condition of funding for the Overground extension and to avoid the risk of revenue abstraction on several TOCs. To get it removed the Mayor would be required to compensate the TOCs for a risk that is not quantified and possibly unquantifiable. This means there is a likelihood of poor value for money because the compensation value would effectively have to be guessed at.

I hate the fact that the line goes via Z1 for one stop. It wrecks the concept of an affordable orbital journey and means I use the ELL less than I would otherwise.
As I understand it a travelcard loaded on an Oyster will not activate any PAYG activity un;less you touch in or out in a zone where the TC is not valid, so as long as you don't need to do an out of station interchange (or meet an inspector) the System will not know which way you went. For PAYG the default fare is usually the most direct - pink validators help identify orbital journeys involving an interchange but I don't know how it deals with, e.g Richmond to Stratford which doesn't involve a change.

As the ELL and NLL services to Clapham Junction are scheduled to pass between H&I and Canonbury, but the ELL arrives first, the quickest train from H&I to CJ will always be the first to turn up (which will be the ELL train 90% of the time), but the quickest from Canonbury will always be the ELL service.
Meant to add - Out of station interchanges can produce odd results - a trip from Moorgate to Seven Sisters (via Finsbury Park) and return to Liverpool Street direct was registered on my PAYG as a Zone 1 fare - I must have touched out and in at Seven Sisters within the time allowed for interchanging between the Victoria Line and Greater Anglia, so it registered the whole round trip journey as simply Moorgate to Liverpool Street!
@ Timbo - Sorry to disagree with you but you are wrong about Travelcards. If I was to travel from Blackhorse Rd to Gunnersbury on my Z23 Travelcard I would be charged for travel via Zone 1 even if I went via another route entirely within the validity of my ticket (via Highbury or Gospel Oak). Travelcard holders without Z1 are required to use Pink Validators at the defined interchanges in the same way as pure PAYG users are. This is a system subtlety that I suspect people are not very aware of.

Oyster has cleverly tied together the zonal availability of Travelcards with the mandated routes for PAYG. Even if your journey is within the zones on your card (e.g.Z23) you can still be charged for travelling via Z1 if TfL have mandated that only a via Z1 fare exists. Clearly a lot of journeys are made through Z1 or with a Z1 tube to rail interchange. However Overground opens up a lot of options to avoid Z1 if only there were alternative priced routes and the validation points to allow it - Clapham Junction is a key gap in the system if you want to travel onto Southern or SWT services.

Stratford - Richmond is an exception in that it is charged as Z234 regardless of using tube or Overground. However if you start at Mile End you are charged as Z1234 and there is no option to "reverse" to Stratford and go via Overground avoiding a Z1 charge. I accept the latter choice is unlikely but if you held a Z234 card and did go that way it would not matter if you touched on the pink validator at Stratford. TfL would still charge you £2 for Z1.

The official wording about pink validators stresses the PAYG aspect but is loosely enough worded to include the possibility that Travelcard holders should also use the validators if using an alternative route or extending a journey. I take a great deal of care to check what fare / route options the Single Fare Finder has if I am trying to avoid being charged for Zone 1. I make sure I use the pink validators as indicated by the Single Fare finder rules.
I stand corrected - the only travelcards I have had for a "doughnut" availability (specifically Z2-4) were paper ones, on which it was certainly possible to go from Richmond to Mile End via Stratford without paying extra.

If the system can spot that, it seems even more bizarre that I can do a PAYG journey from Moorgate to Liverpool Street via an OSI at Seven Sisters and only be charged a Z1 fare!

An interesting question will arise when the Croxley Link is finished - how will PAYG charge a journey from, e.g. Moor Park to Hatch End?
@Briantist - that is indeed a thing of wonder.

Orange, round, looks like an alarm clock and takes you places in London you'd rather avoid, otherwise known as the Clockwork Orange Line...

[And I thought that was an original name until I googled it just now to check something and saw that it is the nickname given to the Glasgow Subway!]
So how are the various route branches identfied - I see people refering to the old "ELL" "WLL" etc, but these really won't be of any relevant to the general public.

I see the overground turning into a German style s-bahn system - these number the individual lines to save having to specify the start/end destinations - especially useful for the clockwise/anti-clockwise routes. Does anyone know if there are any plans for such numbering?

e.g. the Berlin s-bahn has a ring component, many lines using the ring are in the S4x range, other lines get other numbers, see http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Topographischer_Netzplan_der_S-Bahn_Berlin.png
@ Timbo - ah paper tickets. Well yes you're correct that detection by gates was not possible. It is doughnut fraud that TfL are seeking to stop by linking zones and single fare routing.

There is no OSI at Seven Sisters - interchange is within the gateline between LU and GA. I assume you were caught by the F Park OSI via the FCC gates and then the LU validator but this would be ignored by the system as the money deducted at the gates gets added back by the validator. Therefore the start and end are all in zone 1 and you must have done it within the permitted jny time allowance.

Moor Park to Hatch End is easy - Zone 7 to Zone 6 via Zone W (Watford). There is a fare for this zone combination already. It's debateable as to whether TfL would put in a pink validator at Watford Junction. The alternative route via Northwick Park / Kenton involves an OSI which would probably trigger a different fare calculation (depending on what fares TfL set).
@ Mark - Depends on who you ask!

From a Passenger's Charter point of view, they're referred to as Richmond - Stratford, Clapham Junction - Willesden Junction, Watford Junction - Euston, Gospel Oak - Barking and Highbury & Islington - West Croydon.

From a promotional point of view, TfL announced that the completed East London Line Extension would be known as the East London Railway, similar to the "Extended Jubilee Line" name that followed the integration of Green Park - Stratford into the existing railway.

And traditionally, Willesden Jn - Clapham Jn is the West London Line, Richmond - Stratford the North London Line; Barking - Gospel Oak variously as the GOBLIN, Tottenham & Hampstead or Tottenham & Forest Gate; and Euston - Watford Junction as the DC or New Lines.
@ Barry Salter - and yet a few months back the Mayor and TfL called the new Overground service to Clapham Junction "the New South London Line" in official TfL Board papers.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Part-1-Item05-Commissioners-Report-June-2012.pdf - see page 6

Doesn't quite fit in with the previous pronouncements that names like "North London Line" were redundant following market research. The preferred names according to the research were as you list at the start of your post.
@PC - senior moment on my part: it was Tottenham Hale I went to, not Seven Sisters: and TH does have an OSI.

I didn't change at Finsbury Park, but the much simpler cross platform change (Northern City to Vic) at H&I, and there are certainly no barriers to negotiate for that change
I passed that way on Monday afternoon (5th Nov)to get the train to Shepherds Bush, while waiting for my train to leave they ran a train from the new platform which past by the stationary Willesden Junction train I was sitting in at the platform.










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