please empty your brain below
On the East London Line diagram, what is the grey line next to Surrey Quays?

Tube Geek | 25.02.16 - 7:18 a.m. | #

Stock runs interchangeably? The trains on the ELL version of the overground are third rail only. They could run on the Euston Watford service, but they'd need to be towed to get there, there isn't a third rail route from the ELL to the Watford tracks, so in practice not interchangeable at all.
Likewise, the Liverpool Street trains are overhead AC power only, so these couldn't run on the ELL or Watford routes.

IslandDweller | 25.02.16 - 7:19 a.m. | #

Battersea Park was due to be shown on the December 2015 update of the Tube map. When I saw the draft I pointed out that it was largely irrelevant and the powers that be saw sense!

Rob | 25.02.16 - 8:10 a.m. | #

I'll beat Geofftech to his likely point - as it is potentially served at times of disruption (planned or otherwise) it is useful to show on board as a lot of people won't know where it is in relation to the network. I agree not sensible on the main tube map though.

Al | 25.02.16 - 8:37 a.m. | #

I seem to remember reading a letter of complaint recently (in the Metro or ES, not sure) by someone who found themselves at Battersea Park, they say without warning.

MikeR | 25.02.16 - 9:05 a.m. | #

Yes, the only way I managed to get on the Watford to Rickmansworth service was when the line was disrupted and all trains were running that route.

JQ | 25.02.16 - 9:06 a.m. | #

The counter argument was written only a week or so ago - http://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/2016/02/battersea-park-on-overground-carriage-maps/

Having trains which unaccountably go to stations not on the map at all clearly has the potential to be confusing, and I don't see that harm is done by avoiding that confusion.

marek | 25.02.16 - 9:11 a.m. | #

And the Croxley curve isn't a very relevant comparison:

1. it's not to get the track on the map, it's to get a station on which otherwise doesn't appear at all- Metropolitan line trains don't go to places not on the Metroplitan line diagram

2. it's to give some help when something unexpected happens - and diversion to Battersea Park is a planned for unexpected thing. Do trains from Rickmansworth to other destinations ever get diverted to Watford?

marek | 25.02.16 - 9:20 a.m. | #

I think for me the question is why serve Battersea Park at all? Why have those handful of trains? What gives?

I presume it's something operational - route knowledge, or to keep some piece of track with a passenger service or something.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 25.02.16 - 9:22 a.m. | #

Hold on, Olympia was never important. I think you mean "admittedly it used to be wildly over provided for because the tiny number of regular passengers were very good at writing to their elected officials".

Simple mistake, so I'll forgive you.

Chris | 25.02.16 - 9:38 a.m. | #

@Andrew Bowden It's a parliamentary service preserving the connection between Battersea Park and Wandsworth Road and saves DfT the costs of going through a closure procedure.

As others state - as it is a completely different station I think it's perfectly correct to show it as a limited service. Most train operators with similar services show them on their maps and I don't see why London Overground should be any different.

John | 25.02.16 - 9:52 a.m. | #

You only have to watch an adult playing with one of those wooden Brio train sets (with a bored toddler to validate the activity) to realise that most people do not realise that points on a railway are not like road junctions, certain moves are impossible. So no need to show Watford North Curve.

Malcolm | 25.02.16 - 10:18 a.m. | #

Island Dweller: some of the Overground trains are dual voltage, so could run anywhere. As to whether they actually do in practice, I suspect that the mixed maps to which DG refers strongly suggest that they do.

Malcolm | 25.02.16 - 10:22 a.m. | #

What? Don't drag me into this. I'm innocent in these matters.

Geofftech | 25.02.16 - 10:39 a.m. | #

Surely the technology is there (and cheap enough) to use actual screens in the carriages to display the line diagram appropriate to the route the train is currently running. That way you could highlight things like the next station and direction of travel, which is something I notice a lot of people unfamiliar with the lines getting confused by.

The same would be useful on the S7s - given how often I see confused people on a H&C train peering at the District line map and wondering when we're going to get to Tower Hill.

Moogal | 25.02.16 - 10:42 a.m. | #

You've missed out the fact the Olympia shuttle also runs when there are exibititions, making the most frequent un frequent service!

Tube Geek | 25.02.16 - 10:47 a.m. | #

@Island Dweller
The trains on the Liverpool Street lines don't show the ELL, or vice versa. Only the lines they can actually operate on. In the same way the "S7" trains have line diagrams for the District and for the Hammer-Circle (although it would not be impossible to have a combined diagram for the three lines), but not the Met which is the preserve of the S8s

As for the Watford spur, there is a precedent, as line diagrams used to show all three sides of the Aldgate triangle.

[jpeg 1] [jpeg 2]

This was because a handful of Circle trains used to run to and from Whitechapel.

timbo | 25.02.16 - 11:04 a.m. | #

@timbo

Why would circle line trains to Whitechapel result in the missing sides of triangle being coloured metropolitan purple and district district green respectively, with not a hint of yellow?

marek | 25.02.16 - 11:14 a.m. | #

Because on the line diagrams at stations they were shown as District/Met trains. It wasn't perfect, but it was how LT chose to represent the arrangement.

After all, it would be unthinkable to have a Circle Line that had a spur flying off at a tangent - oh, wait.

timbo | 25.02.16 - 11:52 a.m. | #

does the solitary GOBLIN train to Willesden Junction on Mon-Fri mornings have its own 'limited service' line ?

Paul | 25.02.16 - 12:38 p.m. | #

As stated by others above, trains to Battersea Park are operated so that drivers retain route knowledge, and so that closure proceedings for this piece of infrastructure do not commence. In the event of disruption at Clapham Junction Battersea Park also forms a convenient 'bolthole' to divert trains to - but unless every driver is cleared to go there this plan will not work. And to be cleared to go somewhere, a driver must retain 'route knowledge' of a route by driving on it at least once every 6 months. These two trains a day ensure that each driver 'has a go' every 6 months and is therefore cleared to go there if the proverbial hits the fan.

I also do not see the point of putting up maps for the North London Line and Euston-Watford in 3rd rail only units which are normally stabled at New Cross depot.

straphan | 25.02.16 - 1:04 p.m. | #

1 - Croxley Curve - IS used, for through workings Amersham (Chesham?) - Watford - London on days like Boxing Day to eliminate separate services when demand may not be seen to merit that. It's also handy for 'Steam on the Met' as it interferes least with scheduled trains.

2 - Circle and District Lines combined diagrams used to appear on classic CO/CP, R etc trains (those with the flared sides and wooden window frames which moved more than the train did) and made such Art Deco noises as matched their design era.

3 - Overground trains are only limited by traction supply and connecting lines. The West Anglia Line units (classes 315 and 317) can access the North London Line via the unused Graham Road curve, which is/was cleared for operation by both types ['313' sufficing for 315, the type on the West Anglia routes], and thus through to not only Willesden [but not much further west] but also to Finsbury Park and the Great Northern via the single-tracked [which would limit service frequency] Canonbury Tunnel. The myriad connections possible via Overground links are beyond count, even though someone probably will list them now!
These lines DO have names, just that TfL won't use them - North London, East London, West London, Sarf London, 'What use' [WATford - EUSton] and West Anglia. ELL is often run with dual-volt trains because (a) they are serviced at New Cross Depot, and (b) they cover for third rail units out of service - same as on the WAT-USE line.
Trains which can work more than one line could use the Paris Metro indication system, whereby on branched or alternative routes, the line being traversed is illuminated.

4 - the real problem, as DG has pointed out with the all-O'ground map, is that to show everything not only defies logical geography but also makes the accursed thing unreadable - too much info in too short a space.

Joel | 25.02.16 - 3:24 p.m. | #

Even simpler, a light illuminated above the appropriate diagram for the service!

Martin D. | 25.02.16 - 4:55 p.m. | #

I wonder if the Elizabeth line map will be amended to show that not all trains from Essex continue through the tunnel? I'm sure on trains terminating at Liverpool Street announcements will be made to change will be made at earlier stops but I imagine some people will themselves in the main line station when they wanted to be under ground. (Unless I've got it completely wrong and the terminators are terminating in the tunnel and reversing of course!)

| 25.02.16 - 5:58 p.m. | #

I recently made a return journey from Highbury & Islington to West Croydon and it was the repetitious recorded announcements that drove me crazy!

Frank F | 25.02.16 - 6:08 p.m. | #

@Tube Geek - Exhibition service to Olympia is no longer provided AIUI.

Kirk | 25.02.16 - 7:05 p.m. | #

Surely should state: *very* limited service?

E | 25.02.16 - 8:25 p.m. | #

Rob -

You weren't alone in arguing for Battersea Pk not to be shown. We raised the ommission of Watford North Curve and all went quiet.

AS | 25.02.16 - 8:38 p.m. | #

Battersea Park is a destination more often than timetabled.
A colleague of mine who travels from Peckham Rye via CLJ to Putney has found that Overground trains are sometimes diverted to Battersea Park when there are long delays so they can catch up on the timetable.
After (my) advice, he now walks to Queenstown Road Battersea to catch a train direct to Putney, rather than waiting for a Southern train to Clapham Junction and then changing.
Sadly, getting around in London relies on experience, as the local information available can be quite poor and many maps are misleading.

Andrew-R | 26.02.16 - 12:02 a.m. | #

This discussion about printed paper maps all seems very 20th Century.

Screens of all shapes and sizes are cheap, and trains (whether Under or Over Ground) know where they are on the system. Replace paper maps with screens showing the actual route that the train is running and have the train's position as a moving point of light (as they do on the Brussels underground).

At a stroke this eliminates the problem of using the same stock on different routes (District? Circle? H&C? - the screen will show you at a glance).

Is the train going to Battersea Park instead of CLJ? The screen will tell you, perhaps with the stub of line pulsating to indicate an unusual destination.

It does away with those monotonous announcements because you can see where you are without being told. Blind or partially-sighted people could have a button that played an announcement if they needed it.

Only one rule - the screen should show the route CONTINUOUSLY. No advertisements or 'security' announcements.

RayL | 26.02.16 - 8:23 a.m. | #

here, at 4m 30s in, Battersea Park explained:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9xRFk8ffr8

Geofftech | 26.02.16 - 1:00 p.m. | #

The sticker problem is the same problem as on the new S-Stock, isn't it? I don't know how often I had to point Tourists to the other map "because they where on the green line, not the yellow or pink one"

as for the Names: Why don't they call the Overground lines "Charlotte Line", "George Line" and "William Line", Marketingcoup!

Max | 26.02.16 - 8:51 p.m. | #

Well I was on a Highbury - West Croydon train today, which had these extra sticker maps for the North London and Watford routes, but none of the routes through the East London line. The train can't have strayed over from the core North London route, as it didn't have a pantograph on the roof. What a strange mess!

| 02.03.16 - 2:03 p.m. | #











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