please empty your brain below

(awaits corrections)
I'm always impressed at how you create a fascinating article out of someone's published data.

I venture an entry for pedant's corner. I think Gatwick Airport station (and the terminal buildings) are just inside West Sussex

http://www2.westsussex.gov.uk/lvmaps/imap.html

dg writes: Indeed it is - I hope that's clearer now.
Great article, as always, you've made the data come to life. Looks like you've mentioned Brentford and Brentwood interchangeably in places.

dg writes: I'm always doing that, sorry. Hopefully fixed now.
It was Brentwood that recently joined Zone 9, not Brentford.
Southeastern's rubbishness aside, isn't the main problem that Kent CC stubbornly refuse to contribute to the TfL pot in the way that (e.g.) Bucks and Essex have done for years?
DG. The fares to Gatwick are not that simple. If you are prepared to jump through some hoops there are more, cheaper options.

If you get off at East Croydon, walk up the ramp and go through the gates, then turn around and go back in again, continuing your journey on the next train you will be charged differently. Instead of £14.00 peak you are charged £5.00 Victoria to East Croydon and £5.20 East Croydon to Gatwick, totalling £10.20.

Off Peak the saving is less, a total of £6.20 instead of £8.00 for the through fare. If one section of your journey falls into peak and one into off peak there are other combinations too.
Once upon a time, the zonal system ended at z6, Harold Wood on the Shenfield Line. If I bought a one-day travelcard from Wivenhoe, it included z1-z6

Now we have Shenfield in z9, but when I buy a one-day travelcard, it is still only valid z1-z6 even though I've passed through z7-z9

Not only this, I can't buy a z1-z9 travelcard even if I wanted to.

The zonal system is getting crazy, too many zones, too many exceptions. No other city in the world is as complicated as this surely.
Nice to see you referring to the London Tube and rail map which shows lines South of the Thames, alien territory to tube lines.
If the line to Shepperton was to become Oyster, then the boundary should be extended to Staines.
When Crossrail opens I wonder if Reading will be included.
@James Bunting

I may well be wrong here but I thought that splitting a single journey into multiple sections (and tickets) was permitted provided the train stopped at each intermediate station. If this is the case then presumably a Victoria to Gatwick passenger would be able to purchase 2 tickets initially and not have to faff around at East Croydon. Clarification from an expert please!
So, if you have a lovely Freedom Pass, will it now take you to Gatwick? And if so, then Victoria-Brighton becomes a matter of just getting a Gatwick-Brighton ticket before you leave.
Epsom Z6 - Epsom Z6 - Epsom Z6 - Epsom Z6

Seriously, I can't wait for this to happen - I take every opportunity on every forum to highlight this anomaly - and get the same response that whilst Epsom is technically closer than other Z6 stations, Epsom did not want to be in London, etc.

And, can the same rail expert inform me whether it is permitted to travel from Ewell East to Clapham Junction (say) via Epsom (and vv), as the NR journey planner shows this longer and part reverse direction journey as being the quickest at times - my daughter has just started commuting on a rail only travelcard. Thanks
The electronic isolation of Epsom can probably be laid at the door of the then MP, Peter Rawlinson. The area was included in early plans for the GLC, but he apparently argued for his constituency to remain in Tory Surrey.
Woolwich in the London Borough of Greenwich (er, Royal Borough if you listen to the Council) is in Zone 4.
Roding Valley, Essex - Zone 4.
Really fair (sic).
Nicholas, no. Though a Freedom Pass would have taken you to Dartford (and Swanley too) well before the recent general extension. And Watford Junction if you stick to Overground.
I'm not so sure that Stoneleigh is achievable by Oyster. When travelling South to Epsom from Wimbledon a pre-recorded announcement is played to say that after Worcester Park (before Stoneleigh and Ewell) that Oyster is not valid.
Otherwise a great article, as always :-)
@ Urpert

KCC arbitrarily scuppered the previous proposals for TfL to take over Southeastern's lacklustre Metro service out to Sevenoaks. This was just a silly childish spat over Boris Island which they really detested; they simply didn't consider the merits of the case and all the benefits that London Overground would undoubtedly bring.

Fortunately there's now been an outbreak of common sense and KCC now fully support a TfL takeover. 'Red Lines' have now been agreed with TfL, e.g. that the fast mainline services won't be impaired by TfL snaffling any Southeastern 'paths' to allow a more intensive London Overground service.

Fingers crossed for 2018 !
Stoneleigh & Ewell West are both Oyster. I think Stoneleigh was once zone 6 and when Ewell West and Ewell East joined it became Zone 5.

However some peak trains skip Stoneleigh and Ewell West. If you are on one of those you must change before or at Worcester Park. There have been letters in the local papers from people travelling to Epsom by mistake and getting a Penalty Fare.
@ Julian 1007

The fares that I have quoted are for an Oyster card, not paper tickets. Your understanding is correct for paper tickets but for Oyster the gate readers need to know that you have completed a journey. Swiping in at Gatwick and out at Victoria will deduct £14, Swiping out and in again at East Croydon will then read as two separate journeys at the lower total cost. Using two paper tickets will cost a total of £11.10 at any time (there is no off-peak) against one ticket at £15.40. However, the idea of the Oyster being available to/from Gatwick is ease of use. It may save on queuing, particularly at Gatwick, but is not a cure all due to the clash of concepts between National Rail and TfL.
Not only does stoneleigh (z5) to z1 cost more than buckhurst hill (z5) to z1, but the higher fare is only valid for three z1 stations. Venture beyond waterloo or victoria, or charing cross and you pay even more.

As for shepperton getting oyster before Epsom - just compare the number of swt stations outside the gla area that have been added to the zones on swt's watch compared with southern's. (clue: ewell west's fares are linked to ewell east's)

Can't have that - it would be taking dividends from the shareholders.
because that's how much fast trains increase the fare you pay

I know you know this really but even if you catch a slow train the fast trains have still increased the fare you pay.

In this case, the fast trains don't, of themselves, increase the fare you pay. What they mean that the fare from Watford Junction to Euston is set by London Midland as the designated primary user of the route (or some similar term) and they choose to charge more.

Gatwick is exceptional but not unique in having a higher fare for the faster service.
...all this leads me to think if there are bus stops outside Greater London but "accessible" by Oyster? Or has that already been talked about?

dg writes: Hell yes.
Passing through Gatwick last August, I decided to venture in to London to see a show. On seeing my hesitation at using the machines, a helpful man in a purple vest, easily convinced me to avoid the Gatwick Express and use instead A Day Return ticket which included travel in zones 1 and 2 - and good enough for my purposes. Trains take just 3 mins longer.

Only nuisance was trying to figure out which trains to take on the way back. Its not easy to read those displays in Victoria if you don't know the lines and the geography all that well.
At one time the Metropolitan Line's extra zones were A-D rather than 7-9.

Hopefully Epsom doesn't have to wait for Crossrail 2 to get Oyster- it is after all rather closer to central London than Tattenham Corner.

It's also far past time to correct the underground versus rail fares differential. Needs TfL and DfT to coordinate of course, and there's the danger of screwing tube users rather than making rail fares cheaper
@James Bunting 1.32pm

Thank you. You are of course right. As soon as I clocked on 'Publish' I realised my error! What DG's excellent discourse illustrates is the shambolic muddle performing a simple task like deciding the cheapest way to travel between 2 stations has become. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can point the finger at the fundamental cause of this chaotic situation. Is it TfL? Is it the ToCs or is it the Department of Transport for a failure of overseeing? I live well away from London now and when I travel up from the sticks I either get a Travelcard or a return to Paddington and use the bus with my Oldies pass. Given the Gestapo, sorry Revenue Protection, can jump you for a minor transgression I wonder whether people are actually deterred from visiting London.
Yes the inability to by a travelcard from a rail station covering more than just zone 1 - 6 is stupid and does need sorting out. I got caught out by this at my local (SWT) station where the ticket machine listed the tickets as "Travelcard (All Zones)". I tried to use this to Zone 7 and it wouldn't let me through the barrier. It was only then it was pointed out it was in fact a Zone 1 - 6 ticket and not valid that I realised the problem. Thankfully they did let me through the barrier on the way there where I explained that I had bought what I thought was an all zone ticket. I had to get off at Moor Park on the way back, to avoid getting charged the full Zone 7 - Zone 1 fare on Oyster when I already have a travel card for zone 1 - 6. A stupid system!
And, after all that, you can't use Oyster on Heathrow Express... Which is within greater London
The new London Rail & Tube map is terrible when you print it. Too small to read now it's down to 1 page.

Best to find the bigger fold out map from a station.
So, @Gerry red lines over the orange lines
Al__S,

Tattenham Corner, Tadworth, Kingswood and Chipstead were added to Zone 6 because it was a passenger-friendly move that simplified things and the loss of revenue would have been small. The fact that these stations are often unstaffed may well have been a factor - better to get some revenue almost guaranteed than suffer high levels of fare evasion.

Putting Epsom in Zone 6 when there is no rationale for doing so would lose substantial revenue. So don't hold your breath.
@ Julian - I don't think there is a single cause as to why the fares structure is so complex.

History is a factor because there are issues around fare scales and inter-availability that stretch back way beyond zones. These are still factors as to why fares differ so much in similar parts of London. If removing these anomolies was to increase fares for people then expect a torrent of complaints. The Zone 1 "add on" fare for people changing from NR to LU dates back decades - I can remember it being an issue back in the 1980s. Just be thankful that the "add on" fare for changes between operator outside on Zone 1 is Zero. Imagine the complications if you paid to change at places like Stratford or Willesden Junction?

When zones were introduced there was no great recognition of "routes" as there was little connectivity between tube lines outside of Zone 1. Once we got the Overground tied in to the TfL network and you could skirt round Zone 1 then TfL were effectively forced to introduce variable priced routes using the "routeing validator" concept. To charge everyone as travelling via Zone 1 even if they didn't go that way was unsustainable. It also undermined the case for having the Overground to take some pressure off Zone 1. It will be interesting to see how fares are set across Watford once the Met Line reaches there and local journeys between the Met and Overground via Watford Junction become viable. All the other new schemes in build are in or near Zone 1 so shouldn't cause major issues although stretching Oyster to Reading and Heathrow via Crossrail brings its own challenges.

Politics is another - we've had so much change in policies over the years with fares flip flopping back and forth depending on who is in charge. In more recent times we have had a somewhat toxic blend of national policy favouring more farepayer contributions, TfL wanting to push for a single tariff but being unable to achieve it, the push for TfL to run more suburban rail not being able to pull fares down in some places. Government has tied TfL's hands over Crossrail's fares and on West Anglia and will do so again if any more franchises are taken over - especially if they run beyond London. We know Kent CC don't want fares to artificially fall near the council boundary as they are fearful of the traffic consequences if people drive en masse to the cheaper station and try to park. The overloading of Epping station by people driving from Harlow and other nearby towns and villages is a classic example of this. You can't blame people for wanting to reduce the fares they pay but there can be adverse consequences when there is no decent public transport to get them to the railhead.

Government policy on franchises and the way National Rail fares are compiled are why Watford Junction and Shenfield are not priced by TfL's contracted TOC but by the "main line" TOC. Not really anything to do with fast trains really - much more to do with pricing nodes on the NR network. Don't expect any fares miracles when Crossrail runs west of West Drayton.

The other major factor is that TfL have created a facility (Oyster) that broadly works for people and which is attractive. It's not perfect but its overall perception by the public is good. It also helps to take cost out of operations and it's this coupled with public pressure that is leading to more TOCs wanting to be involved. They have belatedly realised that Oyster can pull in extra revenue and reduce pressure on ticketing facilities even if it may not offer bargain fares. That will bring on pressure for more extensions to Oyster but it seems the system changes needed to facilitate may not be complete until at least 2018.
Anon
That's because Heathrow Express is run by greedy crooks.
Who are now trying to screw around with future Crossrail fares (!)
As Gordon said, freedom pass doesn't take you to all the zones. Indeed, it is not even consistent. You can reach zones 1-9 on the Metropolitan line, but not the new bits in other directions. Also, you have either to buy the extension before you travel (increasingly difficult now that ticket offices have closed and ticket machines often don't sell them), get off at the edge of the zones to buy it (big delay), or buy a ticket from your starting point (and pay for travel which should be free).
@Peter Cameron on Freedom Passes and going outside the zones. Southern have recently degraded their 'Mixing Deck' for online ticket purchases. There is no recognition for 'Boundary of Zone X' as a starting point, so Freedom Pass users are forced to buy at a ticket office. Some station ticket machines will recognise 'Boundary of', others won't.

In addition, the on-line screens have been dumbed-down and less options are shown. There are now silly straight-line maps that don't show the actual route of the train, just a point-to-point dotted line. The ticket will say 'Route: Any permitted', so why not show the permitted routes? Very poor, Southern.
@ RayL

Southeastern are also changing to the dumbed down booking engine. It seems mostly change for the sake of change, failing to tackle the meaningless nonsense of 'Valid As Advertised', 'Any Permitted Route', 'Ask a Member of Staff' etc. It's also irritating having to register, remember yet another password and give a phone number. After all, all I want is to buy a rail ticket !

The big map is just a gimmick, although as the transaction progresses the silly dotted straight line gets replaced with a solid line showing the actual route.

It claims to offer 'Easy-to-view best value fares including Railcard and GroupSave discounts, so you never pay more than you need to', but I bet it won't show when split tickets are cheaper ! They'll just blame the passenger for buying The Wrong Sort of Ticket.

The old Southeastern booking engine would shamelessly overcharge you if you selected an expensive ticket (e.g. an Anytime return) but then looked at off-peak train times; it then showed them all as charging the full fare. This might have even been illegal, but it seems to have been corrected in the new system.
- Peter Cameron et al
If you can't buy the ticket you need at your origin you are entitled to start your journey with a valid ticket (eg a Freedom Pass) and rebook at the first reasonable opportunity. No TOC is going to argue that getting off the train at the edge of the zones purely to buy the second ticket is reasonable, so in such a situation you can pay the extra when you change trains or find an on-train ticket seller, or failing that at your destination.
Drifting-inexorably-off-topic klaxon
Re tickets routed via the train's travel - can't see that the point earlier has been answered.

As long as the break point(s) on a ticketed journey are on the route of the train being travelled on, there is no requirement for the train to have a scheduled stop at that point, so a mix of Freedom Pass and off peak return Waterloo - Surbiton (z6 boundary) - Farnborough doesn't require the train to stop at Surbiton, just pass through it.

If 'mixing deck' fails to offer a z6 - destination fare (a nasty way of increasing the price - I would make a cheap political point about private railways here but it would take too long and preach to a lot of converteds), while it requires some pre-planning, use the London Railways map to establish the boundary station and then request the fare, as in Surbiton - Farnborough above.
@Joel
"As long as the break point(s) on a ticketed journey are on the route of the train being travelled on, there is no requirement for the train to have a scheduled stop at that point"

This is only true if one or both tickets is a season or other pass.

Of course, in the example given, you couldn't buy a Surbiton to Farnborough ticket from any machine on SWT except those at Surbiton itself, as SWT does not have machines that sell tickets from any station except the one they are installed at. I'm not sure this complies with ATOC rules, but SWT are never going to imperil their shareholders' dividends by actually making it possible for people not to have to overpay.
Watford Junction is cheaper if you only go to Euston - the DC lines kept discounted fares to the terminus when made orange.

I believe that Broxbourne et al are 'zone B' (and Brentford was in it until late last year). Shenfield is 'zone C'.

Essex doesn't have 'all the luck'. The County Council pay TfL to give it's TfL ran stations low fares. Though given Brentwood moved from NR set zone-8 equivalent 'zone B' to zone 9 with the conversion to TfL fares, it seems like they aren't too keen on non-Central line stations!
Only just seen this. I've taken on publishing the grid of fares that TfL have now stopped doing, at least for the actual numbered zones. It is complicated though. You can see my effort at oyster-rail.org.uk/fares-guide/single-fares-2016.

Re Swanley - I'd expected that to match Dartford and be done at the same time so I'm slightly puzzled what the hold up is there. Perhaps the open nature of the station (footbridge is a public right of way) has stalled the plans.

Re Epsom - IMO it'll never be zone 6. Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner and Caterham all went into zone 6 as fixed length branch lines to encourage more useage. Reducing Epsom fares would have implications to Dorking and Horsham, if not all the way to the coast.

Re Gatwick - This is the biggest copout. GTR openly admit that Oyster acceptance is for convenience rather than value for money. The whole way the fares to places other than on the direct routes to London have been set is farcical. In many places it is cheaper to travel via London rather than avoid zone 1. I think it has the ability to dent Oysters reputation as a good fares system.










TridentScan | Privacy Policy