please empty your brain below
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Friendly pedant moment:
"Kennington station will have to be re-zoned at the same time, from 1 to 1/2" --> from 2 to 1/2
stevekeiretsu | Homepage | 22.07.14 - 2:37 a.m. | #
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Second, friendly pedant moment...
'Javelin' trains connect Stratford International to St. Pancras, not King's Cross.
Regards
zin92 | 22.07.14 - 6:33 a.m. | #
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Cheers. Some days there'd be no comments without friendly pedants.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 22.07.14 - 6:40 a.m. | #
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"rest of Newham remains where it's always been in zone 3"
When the DLR Beckton branch opened the eastern end was in zone 4 IIRC.
Steve | 22.07.14 - 7:24 a.m. | #
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Wot no PoP?
Re re-zoning, some years ago the ends of the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches were brought into Zone 6, despite being in Surrey rather than Greater London. Any such prospect for stations such as Shenfield, I wonder?
Gordon | 22.07.14 - 7:26 a.m. | #
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The Javelin was a great connection for the Olympics but the premium from Stratford is daft. Presumably there are actually some commuters from Kent on the Javelin? I wonder if it makes money.
Andrew | 22.07.14 - 7:46 a.m. | #
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Although as you said the Oyster fare from zone two to Stratford won't actual change it will benefit a lot of people who live in zone two, those with Travelcards. I have an annual zone 1/2 Travelcard and live on the Isle of Dogs, currently it is cheaper to travel to Westfield Shepherds Bush which is a over an hour away than to Stratford which is only 20mins. By reclassifying Stratford into 2/3 it may not benefit zone two pay as you go users but Travelcard users will be grateful.
Jon | 22.07.14 - 8:01 a.m. | #
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There are definitely commuters from Kent on the Javelin - I work with two of them. Both live in Ashford. They think the extra expense is justified by greater speed, comfort and reliability. Which makes them just the sort of customers Southeastern had in mind, and is probably why the fares won't go down.
Baldassaro | 22.07.14 - 8:20 a.m. | #
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I hate to be cynical (yet somehow the combination of Boris and property developers inclines one in that direction) but isn't this purely about making all those newbuild Stratford properties pricier and easier to sell?
Benefits to millions? Hmmm. Benefits of millions to a few, paid for by TfL, sounds more like it. I wonder which MoB (Mates of Boris) were behind that one?
ChrisM | 22.07.14 - 8:44 a.m. | #
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While I don't begrudge some people a fare reduction this is yet another squeeze on TfL's budget. So far we've had a massive revenue grant reduction from the Chancellor, Boris's "efficiencies", millions spent on promoting the Estuary Airport, £30m on Joanna's "darling" Garden Bridge, the ongoing impact of last year's botched fares revision process due to Boris and George's internicine warfare and now this £7m per annum cut to revenue. How long can we have the transport network being treated as some sort of "piggy bank" for the Mayor to fritter away while people struggle to get about at peak times?
PC | 22.07.14 - 8:54 a.m. | #
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In regards to Caterham/Tattenham Corner vs. Shenfield... Those two got into Zone 6 precisely because they're dead ends. There's no prospect of funding the commutes of people from outside the edge of the Croydon/Surrey boundary, unless they're willing to drive a long way in for a slow service into the city. That's why they went for Zone 6, and that's why Epsom isn't in the zones despite how much sense that would make. (Plus there's two train companies to revenue share with and SWT is notoriously not inclined to play ball with TfL) The zone change has increased ridership a fair bit on two dead end branch lines with a middling service. Mission accomplished, and it worked better than dragging the Hainault loop into Zone 4 did.
I can't see any of that applying to Shenfield. It will probably get a Zone 8 or something once Crossrail kicks in, though.
Chz | 22.07.14 - 9:47 a.m. | #
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"And how does that affect the graph...?"
Well, the new topological 'before' and 'after' maps of where the the Zones actually like now look like this:
http://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/2014/07/more-rezoning/
geofftech | Homepage | 22.07.14 - 10:02 a.m. | #
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Welcome as this is, it would seem to make fares on the eastern end of the Jubilee line rather complicated, given that Canning Town and West Ham appear to be staying firmly in zone 3. Would a holder of a zone 1-2 travelcard, for example, be banned from traveling Bond Street-Stratford via the Jubilee but perfectly eligible to do so via the Central? Will the barriers at Stratford be programmed to assume a journey not via West Ham? The Shoreditch High Street enclave is complicated enough, but this would be doubly so, given there will be perfectly sensible routes both including and not including zone 3 on many journeys.
Political Animal | Homepage | 22.07.14 - 10:08 a.m. | #
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Excellent analysis as always - I've shared this to a group of Transport Planning students in London.
Living on the JLE and owning a Z1-2 Travelcard, my closest large shopping centre is Stratford, but due to the premium involved in getting there, Oxford Street is the default to go to. Certainly for tens of thousands of inner East Londoners, we now psychologically have a new centre! Not that Westfield is crowded enough at weekends...
I couldn't agree more about the effects of zones. But I do ponder who on earth convinced TfL to put the entire Tattenham Corner line into Zone 6, a particularly affluent bit of Surrey outside of Greater London!
Planner | 22.07.14 - 10:39 a.m. | #
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Took HS1 out of St P to Stratford in the evening peak once when I was pressed for time and was around the KXSP area anyway. Heavily loaded train with every seat taken, and a good handful of people (20-30) got off at Stratford.
Planner | 22.07.14 - 10:54 a.m. | #
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The SouthEastern high speed services are well loaded into Kent. But that's only because SouthEastern messed about with the "classic" express times, making them slower, to encourage time-sensitive people from Ashford and Tunbridge Wells on to HighSpeed.
Arctic Troll | 22.07.14 - 11:27 a.m. | #
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All stations below are on the Zone 2/3 boundary.
Stratford to North Acton, Zone 1/2 fare, £2.80 Oyster peak single, distance 18km approx as the crow flies. 15.6 pence per kilometre
Clapham South to Archway, Zone 1/2 fare, £2.80
Oyster peak single, distance 12.5km approx as the crow flies. 22.4 pence per kilometre
Anyone have a problem with more expensive fares north-south than east-west?
Max Roberts | Homepage | 22.07.14 - 12:23 p.m. | #
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Grrr, don't talk to me about Southeastern and their hi-speed link. They are allowed to put up fares by an extra percentage point over inflation because of the cost of the thing. SE London commuters can't use it at all and East Londoners can by paying a premium.
Oh, and a lot of SE London will be losing their line to Charing Cross next year. I say again, grrrr....
Chris | 22.07.14 - 1:08 p.m. | #
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While I agree with many of the gripes about Southeastern and their fares and policies, it might be worth pointing out another interpretation of the "slowing" of certain trains into traditional terminals. It has been achieved, not by dawdling, but by introducing extra stops. Extra stops are never popular with those whose journey is slowed, but they do offer a big benefit to passengers who can now get on relatively fast trains. Trouble is, rule 1 says that losers-out shout louder than gainers, for any change whatever!
Malcolm | 22.07.14 - 1:41 p.m. | #
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Well, with a Zone 2-3 travelcard you won't get charged any extra to go from Swiss Cottage to Earls Court via Green Park, because there is an alternative route via West Hampstead and West Brompton. (With PAYG, you will get charged a Zone 1-2 fare if you go via Zone 1 though.) So I suspect that a Zone 1-2 travelcard will work when travelling from Stratford via Zone 3 JLE.
John | 22.07.14 - 2:34 p.m. | #
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"passengers starting their journeys in zone 2 will see absolutely no financial benefit whatsoever"
Erm, think again!
If I have a Zone 1-2 travelcard and start my journey in zone 2, Stratford costs me an extra zone today. If it's moved to 2/3, it will mean no extra cost.
Greg | 22.07.14 - 3:35 p.m. | #
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Olympicopolis?!
Sarah | Homepage | 22.07.14 - 3:39 p.m. | #
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snap Sarah, I was wondering about "Olympicopolis" as well
Caroline | 22.07.14 - 3:56 p.m. | #
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Same here Sarah & Caroline-found it hard to concentrate on the rest of the post. Must be a girl thing.
HoosierSands | Homepage | 22.07.14 - 4:18 p.m. | #
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according to yesterday's Standard, Olympicopolis is a £115million cultural centre, announced by Boris Johnson, to include offshoots of the V&A and Sadler's Wells.
amber | 22.07.14 - 6:06 p.m. | #
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I've used HS on a few occasions myself to get to Kent... I just like 140mph trains and it's a lot quicker than going into London.
Silent Hunter | 22.07.14 - 6:50 p.m. | #
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Not complaining about the investment per se, but that we have to pay for it and don't see anything from it. Only the loss of out Charing Cross service. We are promised more services to Cannon Street which is as useful as a chocolate teapot for the west end.
Chris | 22.07.14 - 8:32 p.m. | #
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thanks Amber ... I really do hope they think of another name for it very very quickly
Caroline | 22.07.14 - 10:17 p.m. | #
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@john
"Well, with a Zone 2-3 travelcard you won't get charged any extra to go from Swiss Cottage to Earls Court via Green Park, because there is an alternative route via West Hampstead and West Brompton."
You will get charged extra if an inspector finds you in Z1 with a Z2/3 travelcard
timbo | 22.07.14 - 11:18 p.m. | #
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"Olympicopolis" - doesn't Olympopopolis have a better alliterative ring to it?
Mwmbwls | Homepage | 23.07.14 - 6:11 a.m. | #
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the Exhibition Rd area with the then new museums was referred to as Albertopolis while it was being planned but that name didn't catch on either
amber | 23.07.14 - 8:26 a.m. | #
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Timbo - Assuming you touched in at the start, the inspector would see a validated Oyster card, so would be happy enough. (assuming there are no quirks e.g. you having less than the minimum additional fare on your Oyster card balance).
Messiah | 23.07.14 - 3:10 p.m. | #
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Point taken - it would be different with a paper travelcard though
timbo | 23.07.14 - 4:08 p.m. | #
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What happens if you want to travel from Canary Wharf to Stratford on a Z1/2 Travelcard? If you go via Canning Town on the Jubilee you will pass from Z2 into Z3 and back into Z2 again
timbo | 24.07.14 - 5:32 p.m. | #
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