please empty your brain below
Now what about a cable car using one or two of the power station chimneys as the first pylon, then run above the rivers path, with fantastic views, and descend again in the park by Northumberland Avenue just before Embankment station. (Near the Playhouse Theatre).
I think they would get more passengers than the cable car up in Docklands.
For starters, if it went to Clapham Junction and Crossrail 2 does not exist the trains would be full by Battersea and the station of no benefit to the developer. So if it goes to Clapham Junction the developer will not agree to pay his contribution as he (or his customers) get virtually no benefit so in reality the scheme does not happen and it goes nowhere.
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The Northern line upgrade delivers more peak time trains to Morden, hurrah, but then the Battersea extension takes them away.
I don't understand this comment at all. Battersea via Charing Cross and Morden via Bank will effectively, under normal circumstances, be treated as completely separate branches from Camden Town southward. How does one affect the other?
dg writes: Sorry, I phrased that very badly. It's now 7pm, and I've completely rewritten that sentence.
I take your point but, working on the principle that "the best is the enemy of the good", we could be waiting another 40 years for CR2 to serve Clapham Junction, whereas the Battersea extension will be opening within the next half-dozen or so and could easily be extended further within another couple of years of that. Those 28tph from the Charing Cross branch will mostly be carting around fresh air if the extension ends at Battersea; add a single platform station on a loop at CJ and not only are the trains filled but the further benefit, of removing turnaround time, is realised.
Both were rejected because they would be simply "too popular".
Going back to 1960s when the Victoria Line was built, it was then seen as critical to the success of a line to have interchange stations, because of the extra passengers they would bring.
But today, quite the opposite is the case. Most of the network in Zones 1 and 2 runs at or near capacity for much of the time.
The Battersea extension is quite a good idea that it is taking what are "empty trains" that would have gone around the Kennington Loop and using them to drop off/pick up from two new stations where there is no service now.
Going to Clapham Junction would change things over the whole network: many commuters who would normally use Victoria or Waterloo (or even Vauxhall) would jump onto this branch and then overwhelm Kennington too.
It's not a conspiracy, it is very sensible planning.
"many commuters who would normally use Victoria or Waterloo (or even Vauxhall) would jump onto this branch (at Clapham Junction)"
Given the proximity of both Battersea Park and Queenstown Road stations to the proposed Battersea NLE station, they may well do so anyway.
I don't think the NLE will take any trains away from Morden - more likely it will extend those trains that currently terminate at Kennington.
How long before the two branches through central London each get their own name? No-one seems very confused by the situation in east London where the two routes to Hammersmith (via Baker Street and via Victoria) share tracks between Barking and Aldgate East but have different names (and now even use identical trains) - why shouldn't the same be done on the High Barnet and Edgware branches?
I agree that NLE won't take any trains at all from Morden, the NLE is - as you say - just an modification of the "Kennington Loop".
"How long before the two branches through central London each get their own name?"
I think the new name will start to appear very soon: Battersea->Kennington->West Eng->Camden bit will stay as the "Northern Line"
The rest will be called the "Southern Line".
This would mean either:
a) Rebranding all stations north of Camden Town as "Northern and Southern lines"; or
b) Making a decision on fixing which branch north gets all the "Northern" and "Southern" trains. This requires a better interchange for passengers at Camden Town.
I would guess that doing (a) as soon as the NLE permission is given, and moving to (b) as an when Camden Town is sorted. Changing the name of the line to Northern/Southern would certainly stop all the confusion for tourists.
On the Victoria Line, coming south:
"This is King's Cross St Pancras, change here for the Southern Line, Hammersmith and City, District, Circle, Metropolitan..."
"This is Euston, change here for the Southern Line..."
"This is Warren Street, change here for the Northern Line"
and especially:
Can I travel from Leicester Square to Old Street?
Now... they are both on the Northern Line.
Future.. I will have to change, one is on the Northern Line, one on the Southern Line.
Irksome it may be but certainly not unique. You have to balance capacity.
The there will be no (publicly available except as an emergency escape route) connection between the Hanover Square entrance to Crossrail Bond St station and Oxford Circus. It would be too popular and lead to a swamping of the southbound Victoria line platform.
All proposals to extend the Victoria line southwards (and most other tube extensions) are effectively vetoed because they would make the central section too popular.
You could then have a black, 100% vertical line from Kennington to Edgware on the tube map.
(I'm assuming that the Lime Green of the Waterloo and City will get used for the "Southern Line", with the Drain being the lime colour, but as an outline).
FYI: Full post-CrossRail 1 map
And here's what the map would look like if the proposed "Camden Town interchange" working was implemented.
1. the split of the Northern line WILL happen. Maybe not at peak, but for the rest of the day.
2. Clapham Junction has to make long-term sense even if it wasn't included at this stage.
(2) No! The plan is clear. CrossRail 2 is going to serve Clapham Junction.
See this video
You can't just dismiss the capacity issue. There's no point building a link if it makes the line crowded.
With rail tracks running under Battersea Park Road, and along the side of the old Battersea Power Station it seems strange that a station cannot be built using a slow service on those tracks."
There are no regular passenger services on those tracks - the passenger services use the parallel high level tracks a little to the west: and here is already a station there.
@Briantist
"You would have to save a considerable walk somewhere else from train to tube to make it work walking from Clapham Junction to Battersea or Nine Elms."
I wasn't suggesting walking from Clapham Junction to Battersea - which is well over a mile. But Battersea Park station to Battersea Tube will be only a few hundred yards: about the same as the distance from one side of Waterloo, or Clapham Junction, to the other.
@ Briantist
"You could then have a black, 100% vertical line from Kennington to Edgware on the tube map"
On the existing map the vertical line goes to High Barnet. The turquoise you propose for the "Southern" Line is very close in shade to the colour used for Tramlink, which it crosses in the Merton area.
Crossrail 2, if it ever happens at all, is over twenty years in the future. I have more chance of going into space than of ever using XR2.
If we are to believe the XR2 consultation exercise, it will be full of people transferring from the Northern Line at Tooting. However, given the number of stations beyond Tooting on the Northern Line, and the number on XR2, I think there are likely to be far more people fed into the Northern Line than taken off it at Tooting.
The NLE will cost about £860m or nearly £1bn allowing for inflation. That gives a BCR of 8:1, so benefit of about £8bn.
But the BCR on public spending will be 200. If we accept an £8bn benefit, that BCR suggests public cost of only £40m.
The developers will contribute a little over £200m. So who is paying the balance of £760m?
Re: Battersea Park - http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ldbboard/dep/BAK
The point, I think, is that most of the trains that DO stop at Clapham junction don't stop at Battersea Park: trains to Victoria and Waterloo packed with commuters would easily choose to change a Clapham Junction to the tube if it were there. The main-line trains are 8- and 12- coaches full of long-distance commuters.
Battersea Park is for "slow trains only", just serving local loops.
Re: Crossrail 2. Yes, it's going to be another decade between the opening of the NLE to Battersea and CR2 coming to Clapham Junction.
I think the Victoria line has shown that people will switch lines to get a faster journey. The number of people who use the Victoria/Piccadilly cross platform interchange at Finsbury Park to use the faster (two fast stops vs four slow stops) demonstrates this.
CR2 will have much faster trains, faster signalling, fewer stops and easier ingress and egress - people will change to a line like that.
I've (quickly) mocked up a map: I can see the appeal. Tooting Broadway to Angel - 5 stops on CR2. 14 stops on the "Southern Line".
Gatwick Express to Stansted Express - 5 stops on CR2. 8 stops on Victoria line.
I doubt many Picadilly Line passengers change from Picc to Vic at Finsbury Park if they are going to Kings Cross: it is however the easiest interchaneg between these lines for destinations on the Victoria Line that are not served by the Picc: little-known backwaters like Euston, Oxford Circus and Victoria. such as Euston, or Victoria, and possibly make interchanges easier further on (cross platform at Euston, OXO and even Stockwell)
Yes, if you are actually going from Tooting to Angel, CR2 will be the way to go. But Morden to Angel? If I had a seat I'd stay put rather than cram onto a CR2 train crammed full of Surrey commuters. Conversely, if I am one of those Surrey commuters wedged in to a crowded CR2 train and want to go to Bank or Moorgate, a nice Northern (or Southern) Line train across the platform, still quite early in its journey and with seats to spare, will be far more attractive than staying on the CR2 to Tottenham Court Road or Kings Cross and then fighting my way through the labyrinth to complete the journey on an equally congested CR1 or Thameslink train.
If CR2 were operating today, that's exactly what I would have done this morning.
Moreover CR2 will not have as many interchanges as the Northern Line has - How will CR2 help in a journey from Morden, or even Tooting, to any DLR, Bakerloo, or Jubilee destination?
Your Gatwick to Stansted example. Yes, if you are at Victoria you can use the direct CR2 service to Stansted. But there is no need to go anywhere near Victoria - Thameslink will take you from Gatwick to Kings Cross, and you could pick up CR2 there.
Solution? Don't make the interchange at Clapham Junction too easy. TfL planners should be able to manage that one, the JLE has some appalling interchanges.
Now shows King's Road, Chelsea and Hackney Central correctly. The lines in the middle are better and it's CR2 is now orange
Please stop playing Fantasy Tube Line.
Please stop playing Fantasy Tube Line.
Please stop playing Fantasy Tube Line.
I've just checked though hundreds of pages that say "what a good idea, signed
However, official documents that look at the impact say, for example
"Our station capacity proposals are designed to complement the rail line capacity upgrades. For example, maximising the effectiveness of the southern and southwest upgrades will occur only if Clapham Junction and Waterloo stations can handle the higher flows deposited by the improved train service." -- http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/Rail2025.pdf
As an aside the Bank upgrade is not due to start until 2016 with the main closures expected in, I believe, 2018 so hopefully they can plan that any disruption at Kennington will be finished long before then.
Actually, SWT passengers *do* overload the Victoria Line at Vauxhall. Sometimes some of the ticket barriers are shut to limit flow of people into the station, and TfL have written off expanding the station because then it would mean trains would be too full for passengers at Victoria to board.
The lack of capacity at Vauxhall is one of the reasons why the NLE is considered necessary.
The developer contributions and the higher property taxes they will generate will repay the money needed to build the extension. This is why the line goes no further from Battersea, there is no money to pay for it.
Somme Wandsworth councilors do want it to extend it Clapham Junction. Bt if I was planning a further extension I'd have one at the Western end of Battersea Park, near Albert Road. That would be relatively short and serve all residential growth in Battersea. It would also divert passengers away from Clapham Junction station.
As for Crossrail 2, if it goes via Sloane Square, Hyde Park corner, Marble Arch, Goodge Street, Russell Square and Angel this would take a lot of people away from the Kings Cross/Euston area who currently only have to be there to change tubes, and massively improve the connectivity and robustness of the network. Until the Victoria and Jubilee Lines, Bond Street and Green Park were very quiet stations - now they are key interchanges.
CR1 is new capacity. Some of it will take people from the existing lines, some of it will take people from their cars. That's the whole point.
CR2 will add whole new capacity to the system too.
"Until the Victoria and Jubilee Lines, Bond Street and Green Park were very quiet stations - now they are key interchanges."
When the Victoria line was built the whole Underground system was in decline with falling numbers of passengers.
These days the population of London grows by millions every few years.
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