please empty your brain below
And is a Kingdom split by time really a United one?

We do manage, here in the United States.

(Out of necessity, it's true. Putting the entire lower forty-eight in the same time zone would make no sense at all. But I spent a few weeks one summer commuting to an hour in the past, and got by just fine.)

Marie Brennan | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 5:58 a.m. | #

More daylight in the evenings? I love the like the idea I have to say, but look forward to your post tomorrow to see if you can convince me otherwise.
Cxx

Chris | 24.02.11 - 6:46 a.m. | #

Two months when sunset is after 2200? Hmmm, not keen on that.

Alan | 24.02.11 - 7:04 a.m. | #

Personally I think we should go the other way and scrap British Summer Time altogether.

Barry | 24.02.11 - 7:19 a.m. | #

it is depressing enough travelling to work in the dark for 5 months of the year.This plans means I would travel to work in the dark 11 months of the year. No thanks

peewit | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 7:19 a.m. | #

For once I disagree dg.

This is a brilliant idea.
How can collectively forcing the country to wake up one hour earlier be a bad thing?

And don't forget, they'd tweak the "spring forward / fall back" date at the same time, which would help even things out in autumn and spring.

More light in the evenings? Yes please!

Dan | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 7:35 a.m. | #

Hmm- easy to see that no-one in parliament gets up at six in the morning like the rest of us have to.

Richard | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 7:52 a.m. | #

My father used to have an alarm clock, an old-fashioned, clockwork travelling one. The knob for adjusting the alarm had fallen off, and the alarm was permanently set for seven o'clock. He was too stingy to buy a new one, so if he wanted to get up at six, say, he adjusted the clock to be an hour fast. If he wanted to get up later, he set the clock slow.

That is what we are doing with BST.

If we want to get up and go to work earlier and go to bed later there is nothing to stop us, we can just decide, collectively, to do things at a different time - honestly and openly and without the conman's promise of 'lighter evenings'.

BST is bad enough, double summer time means we really will completely lose touch with the natural progress of the day. For example, we are warned not to go out in the midday sun - but most people will have no idea when midday really is.

It's wrong, and it's unnecessary. We should keep GMT all year round and adjust the times we do things as necessary - no need for blanket rules to be imposed on the whole country then either.

Why do otherwise intelligent people fall for this con trick?

Sarah | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 7:58 a.m. | #

As DG points out - call it what it is - Central European Time. That should put off half the Tory politicians...

I don't understand why we'd need to keep changing the clocks - why not just keep BST all year?

rob.stoke | 24.02.11 - 8:05 a.m. | #

I'm all for sticking with GMT and being more aware of how the seasons change. It seems as if we are being encouraged to be less and less in touch with the reality of our world. I'm really not sure that's good for any of us. So let's 'go back to basics' to quote someone or other

Christine | 24.02.11 - 8:10 a.m. | #

Dan
How would they tweak the Spring Forward/Fall Back dates? At present it's aligned with the dates the rest of Europe do it - either we'd have to get everyone else to change (politically difficult, as they changed about 20 years ago to match us) or we'd be out of sync with them for a few weeks in Spring and Autumn every year, as we were until 20 years ago.

Timbo | 24.02.11 - 9:33 a.m. | #

This is such a good idea - please let it happen. More light in the evenings when we can actually enjoy it.
If the Scottish Islands want to stay on GMT, let them.

Island Resident | 24.02.11 - 10:21 a.m. | #

The idea annoys me because I do a lot of things with people in the US and an extra hour will push a relatively workable time difference with EST to be slightly more annoying (and make PST move towards unworkable) and make me work an hour later each day.

JohnP | 24.02.11 - 10:24 a.m. | #

Well DG, very rarely do I disagree with your postings, but I fundamentally do on this one. Where do I start? Most of us have our leisure time in the evenings, not the mornings; and I for one would prefer as many hours that I decide what to do with being lit by natural light.

“Embracing the same time zone as the rest of Europe” – in any case, I don’t see what’s wrong with that, per se; however it’s not true. There’s no such time zone as “the rest of Europe”. Portugal, Ireland, Finland, Lithuania for example.

“Tweaking our clocks to better suit foreign tourists” – you should know better than to use such emotive language. It would make much the same difference to foreign tourists as it would to anyone else here, except perhaps marginally for anyone affected by jet lag; and even then it would average out between those travelling to the UK from both east and west. I don’t see why we should use that as an excuse not to improve our own lives!

“Abandoning Greenwich Mean Time forever” – so what? We’ve more or less abandoned it anyway. The Greenwich pips sound at different times depending on whether you hear them at source, on an analogue radio, or via DAB, or via the internet. UTC is within 0.9 of a second of GMT, for what it’s worth. Many devices (including my wristwatch) automatically synchronize with UTC.

“Never again celebrating New Year at the 'right' time” – for goodness’ sake! New Year is a totally artificial construct anyway, so it doesn’t matter when it’s celebrated. I personally think it would be rather good to have our fireworks coordinated with those spectacular displays in some other European countries.

“Is a Kingdom split by time really a United one?” – one could argue that there are so many differences between the various component parts of the UK that having an additional time zone would be a trivial addition to them. Many countries manage very well with varying zones; it’s been pointed out above that the USA copes extremely well (some states even have a 30 minute offset!). Russia has nine zones!

DG, I look forward to your posting tomorrow with interest, but I can’t see it changing my mind. I urge readers to go to www.lighterlater.org and see the arguments in favour of the proposals.

Tim | 24.02.11 - 10:33 a.m. | #

It's not 'more light in the evenings'!! It's 'staying up later in the evenings'. Can't you do that without faking your clock? Oh dear, sorry DG, my secret passion of twenty years' standing is finally unleashed. I will go away now and be quiet.

Sarah | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 10:48 a.m. | #

I really look forward to having lighter evenings. I appreciated it when it was last tried out, and have been longing ever since for it to return.
I campaigned my MP a few weeks ago when the motion was getting its first reading, he had indicated a Yes vote.
The government insist that the whole of the UK change and will not consider a separate time zone for Scotland, I cannot see why, the Scottish value their independence so let them have a time zone more suitable for their Northern location.
After all they have there own pound notes.

John | 24.02.11 - 11:42 a.m. | #

I'm for scrapping BST and sticking with GMT full time.

Mark Garth | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 11:45 a.m. | #

"enabled purely because certain businesses would find it advantageous."
Oh no, this bill came about because so many of the public keep asking for it.
Me included.
I'm annoyed Cameron is insisting Scotland must agree for it to happen, I don't see why they can't just do their own thing.

Joho | 24.02.11 - 12:27 p.m. | #

i think it just comes down to whether you're a morning person or an evening person. and whether that's your choice, if your job decrees it.

i say give it a go... leave Scotland out of it, and see if we all like.

possibly going to be an arse for anyone living in Cumbria or Northumberaldn who works in Scotland though. but the US manages ...

geofftech | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 12:37 p.m. | #

Here in Japan we get along fine without any DST. ( though they are always discussing whether to introduce it ).

Jon Allen | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 12:51 p.m. | #

you managed to get 'the 'Conservatives' into this post? What about 'blaming Thatcher'..?

Suggest people read today's (non-Dave Spart) article on the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12536056

Mary | 24.02.11 - 12:55 p.m. | #

How did Scotland manage when the UK went over the CET/BSST in World War II? That was a rather longer experiment than in 1968.

Autolycus | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 1:45 p.m. | #

So who is it wants kids to go to school in the dark and to stay up late (making the most of the light). Eh? Eh?
I quite agree with Sarah.

B | 24.02.11 - 2:01 p.m. | #

I agree with mary.

Montu | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 2:48 p.m. | #

B, you brought up the exact point I was thinking of. Most people travel to work before 9am, and certainly most schoolchildren do. Claiming that having more light in the evening commute will be safer simply shifts those dangers onto the morning commute. Plus, since most children now get out of school when it's daylight even in the winter, it's putting them at risk by adding darkness to their commute that wasn't there before.

Granted, it's all artificial. All we're doing is fooling ourselves.

veronica | 24.02.11 - 4:17 p.m. | #

@Veronica - it's not about fooling anyone. The research and experience shows that, whilst there may be more accidents in the mornings, this is more than offset by the reduction in the afternoon accident rate (hence the proposals are supported by eg RoSPA).

Tim | 24.02.11 - 4:30 p.m. | #

Also just because a region stretches over 30 degrees of longtitude doesn't mean it has to have different times, you might want the same time for other reasons. Doesn't China have one time zone?

Matthew | 24.02.11 - 4:50 p.m. | #

The Scotland argument is clearly a red herring. There's nothing you can do to change the difference in lighting times between Scotland and Southern England (so in winter scotland gets less) so quite obviously the only solution is for Scots and English people to get up and go to bed and so on at different times to one another.

Matthew | 24.02.11 - 4:53 p.m. | #

@Veronica- Far more children are driven to school nowadays than when we last tried lighter evenings in 1968, street lighting has also vastly improved since then.
Most people get home from work after 5pm, and would appreciate having an hour or so of extra daylight after work.
They can get things done then, most people do not do anything in the morning before work but just get out of bed, wash, eat and go to work. If it is dark then it does not matter.
In the evening after work the light is useful to them.
John

John | 24.02.11 - 5:02 p.m. | #

Personally I'm all for lighter evenings - if it's going to be dark, I'd rather it was during work (or school) time than during leisure time, when more use can be made of the extra daylight. And I can't see why Scotland can't be on a different timezone if they want to be.

But I'll suggest a compromise - why not try staying on BST permanently for two or three years first, and see how everyone gets on in the winter with just the one hour time difference?

Tracy | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 5:11 p.m. | #

Why don't companies that want to do business with Europe just start work an hour earlier? If that was half of british business it would nicely spread the rush hour over a longer period, to everyone's benefit.

RogerB | 24.02.11 - 5:19 p.m. | #

I'm with the 'yes' camp.

Lighter evenings for me would more then make up for longer dark mornings. Perhaps its a personality thing, I'm a fair old grump most mornings regardless of daylight, but more daylight in the evenings would benefit enormously.

Lew | 24.02.11 - 5:48 p.m. | #

I usually find that when people say:

"The research shows that"

and they are actually asked to produce the research, either they fail completely, or the research shows nothing of the sort

Max Roberts | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 6:35 p.m. | #

My mum said that trying to get us to go to bed in the summer, and get up in the mornings during winter, was an absolute nightmatre during DST!
I'm already living 8 hours behind the UK and rarely get to speak to my family on the phone because of the time difference anyway, so I'm a definite NO!!! Leave it as it is.

CornishCockney | 24.02.11 - 8:31 p.m. | #

Getting up / going to bed: I was a student during the Sixties BST experiment so I was probably about the worst possible target audience to give an objective view of light evenings/black mornings...

But I'd like an explanation/rationalisation, please, as to why so many countries - developed or not - North and South of the Equator - have adopted Daylight Saving Time. Is - nearly - all the world deluded?

Gordon | 24.02.11 - 8:57 p.m. | #

Let's have BST and leave the clocks on that all the time.
Surely the schools in Scotland can change their starting and finishing times if they want to. Just start classes at 9.30am or 10am in the winter terms. Even the cows might get used to being milked at a different time if it was done slowly in small increments,

Pop artist | 24.02.11 - 8:59 p.m. | #

For those people who want it to be 'lighter later' - if you want it to be light when you do {stuff}, how about observing the (extremely predictable) cycle of day and night, and doing {stuff} *when it's light* ?

Larry Lard | 24.02.11 - 8:59 p.m. | #

Re DST in the 1940s, I can still hear my father's shouted command from downstairs: "Stop that singing and go to sleep!" But sleep was impossible in a sun-warm bedroom with an open window and the sound of other children out playing up till 10pm. We must have been a drowsy lot at school the next morning.

Great Aunt Annie | 24.02.11 - 9:10 p.m. | #

Scotland? Independent? I must have missed that memo.

martin | 24.02.11 - 9:44 p.m. | #

If I've counted up those comments correctly, that's 15 votes for 'yes' and 15 votes for 'no'.

Which would suggest that, whichever way the decision goes, half the country's not going to be happy.

<canofworms>

diamond geezer | Homepage | 24.02.11 - 10:47 p.m. | #

I'd like to add my vote to the "no" camp... I love dark winter evenings, I relish when the clocks go back and it starts getting dark earlier, and I don't like the summer evenings when I have to struggle to get to bed when it's still light!! So personally, I certainly don't want it getting dark any later!!

Ricci | 25.02.11 - 12:26 a.m. | #

My vote's for DST year-round.

And I don't get this nonsense about "deluding" ourselves. Believe it or not, the vast majority of us don't have full control over the time of day that we get to do things. DST is to force everyone to make a seasonal adjustment at the same time and have everyone on the same schedule. The commenters who feel we're deluded are themselves deluded if they think we can all just make up our own minds about when we wake up and go to work.

Chz | 25.02.11 - 7:54 a.m. | #

CornishCockney-as you are living in the U.S.A. I don't think your vote will count!. If you really wanted to be in contact with your family maybe you should have remained in the UK.
Ricci- You must go to bed quite early as on the present system it is dark about 10pm even in mid summer.
Why do you not have curtains or blinds to block the light from your room if it disturbs you.
You can always block daylight out if you do not like it. Get some eye shades.
You can block daylight out at little or no expense, but to make the dark into light costs money.
BTW I have daylight 4700K colour temperature florescent lighting in my house which does help a lot during the dark winter evenings. I recommend them to others who miss the daylight in the evenings.

John | 25.02.11 - 8:45 a.m. | #

@John, it's an interconnected world and the UK's decision on BST will affect people's activities worldwide. DG's many international readers are just as entitled to express their opinions as anyone else.

Great Aunt Annie | 25.02.11 - 6:14 p.m. | #

I appreciate that it affects people in other countries, but the UK government want the people living in UK to be happy with BST or double BST, that is why an expatriate opinion will not count as far as the government is concerned. Of course I like to read all the opinions posted in dg's comment section.
John

John | 25.02.11 - 10:14 p.m. | #











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