please empty your brain below
And this is the reason that things happen so smoothly on the Tube. No really. In Melbourne we have Myki. Myki is a cheap system where (i) the actual card must be held against the reader (you can't wave a wallet) and (ii) the reader takes a few seconds to register and beep and (iii) it often does not read the card and so goes 'MERP' instead of beep, which means you have to touch again more S.L.O.W.L.Y. This leads to large queues of people S.L.O.W.L.Y entering or exiting stations as they fumble in their bags for their cards or find the cards in their wallets or touch the readers to find they cannot read their cards, or, in the case of mine, where I have my card separated, the reader still 'detects multiple cards'. Bad enough in Melbourne ... but in LONDON? Not that the Oyster system has the other woes of Myki, but I can see even a fumble for the right card slowing things down.
Please let me stay in the 1990s. It's warm and nice here and there's lots of flowers and bunnies running around. Plus there's decent telly.
Yours Sincerely
Lew
I always keep my bank cards in a separate holder than my travel cards, which are a Freedom Pass, and an Oyster card for train journeys not covered by the Freedom Pass. Plastic Oyster card holders are easily available often for free.
I think the OysterCard will remain as not every one has a bank account.If Boris thinks otherwise it won't be the first time he has been mistaken.
HSBC might not be able to get the address right to send my Business Credit Card to .. seven times.
But they have supplied me with contactless cards and I use them everyday in Waitrose next to work.
I've even paid for the odd bus fare when I didn't have enough cash on a new Oyster card (and also for a lady passenger who only had a £20 note and was preventing me from getting on with my day).
This is a problem because the reader will reject the combined activated signals from both cards, rather than being double-charged.
I bought a wallet where I could put the Oyster card by itself in a flip-out section. When I get the gateline, I flip out the Oyster card to ensure that I don't swipe the several other RFID ones and cause an embarrassing clash.
As those cute meerkats say: simples.
But that's NOT what happens. When you get an RFID clash, NOTHING gets charged. You get BEEP!ed at.
Please don't invent problems, DG. Your blog is normally a place of eminent sensibleness.
I'm surprised to hear that contactless payments will not longer have a daily cap. That was supposed to be introduced when contactless Tube journeys are switched on.
I already keep my Oyster and point to point season ticket in separate pockets, but nevertheless still manage to absentmindedly use my Oyster for journeys for which my p-p ticket is valid (or trying to put the p-p ticket through a barrier where it isn't valid)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/29472.aspx
Capping will be introduced for contactless payments on the 7-day level. Non mention of one-day caps I can see. Interesting! Does PAYG Oyster have a 7-day cap at present?
I once however made the mistake of having a second Oyster buried deep inside my wallet. On touching out, it got charged a maximum fare while my regular Oyster was not charged.
I have started taking out my Oyster to touch on tubes and buses, even though it is more fiddly and slows me down on the way from the train to the barriers (this varies by station obviously).
DG seems to be one of the many people who like to refer to "their bank", as though they own a bank. (If it's one of the taxpayer-bailed banks, that statement could be somewhat true.)
While DG's bank may not have sent him a contactless card, I have 10 bank accounts with 6 banks, of which 4 have come with a contactless card; I also have 3 contactless credit cards (out of 6).
Nonetheless, the only time I can forsee myself ever using one to pay TfL is if I move out of London and need to transit it on a London Airways (a.k.a. BA) itinerary, or a rail journey involving a change of terminus, when I would rather leave the Oyster at home.
If TfL removes Oysters and goes to yearly/monthly/weekly capping which will prevent me from purchasing season tickets to my advantage, I will seriously consider leaving London. Unfortunately, the other big city to which I could easily relocate (Sydney) has recently introduced a travel smartcard also beginning with the letter O, which has managed to make fares MORE expensive for many travellers (which would include me were I still living there)!
It has already been said the the banks have given TfL an exception to the PIN issue, tube/bus/DLR readers will never not work for that reason.
Although season tickets will need an Oyster card, they are almost certainly going to introduce a 7 day cap, probably billing it as a good thing for part-time workers.
It's true and has happened for a long time to those (like me) who have had two Pay-as-you-go Oyster cards. It's card clash; just not RFID clash.
Dan - Mon-Sun capping is only suitable for regular commuters, yet who don't commute enough for or can't afford annual tickets. Anybody with odd shift patterns, flexible working or works at multiple sites won't be able to buy the selection of zones and dates which suits them best any longer. Soon the trick of 1 month plus X days to get to a Friday before a weekend where one doesn't intend to leave the house will be gone too.
"But that's NOT what happens. When you get an RFID clash, NOTHING gets charged. You get BEEP!ed at.
Please don't invent problems, DG. Your blog is normally a place of eminent sensibleness. "
It is a problem though - you only get beeped at if the reader detects both cards - sometimes it only detects one, but you don't know which: and it may detect the other one on the way out.
As it happens, I have two but they're both credit cards. I have a third credit card and two current accounts - all contactless free.
Anyway, I can't wait until the stories break on the most inevitable problem. Stuff card clash - people are inevitably going to want capping, but accidentally use the wrong card one day and then get REALLY ANNOYED. Cue outrage in the Standard. It's going to happen!
NOW WHAT?
I'm having a John McEnroe moment... You cannot be serious?
You present more than one payment card to a payment card reader and you are some level of surprise that the reader HAS NO TELEPATHIC CIRCUITS???
It's RFID... Not magic.
Wonders well never cease... And I used to marvel at the need for the first escalators needing a one legged man on them!
Now I understand.
I expect there will still be the option to buy Oyster cards for visitors, alternatively a paper 1 day or 7 day travelcard will still be an option as well.
What suprised me was that not only did they understand why I didn't want contactless cards, but my business manager said that no-one in the bank wanted the service either.
No need to say it seven times! I understand perfectly that the reader can't read your mind: the problem is that you can't read the card-reader's mind: if you have had one of your two cards read, there is no easy way to find out whether it's the one you thought it was, or another card you may not even have realised had contactless payment enabled.
Over on DD mention was made of someone going through the gates and then something in her shouder bag, being dragged over the reader, opening the gate a second time. The owner of the bag probably didn't even realise it had happened.
Re your comments.
They are Payment cards. As in Money.
If you care about your money, don't
a) present two cards to a reader and then wonder which one was used;
b) leave a card in a bag and then drag it over a reader.
It's a bit like leaving a pouch full of coins laying about, or an enveloped stuff with notes .. and then being shocked they aren't as full as they were when you left them.
@Simon - the French are well known for their luddism...
Re your comments.
They are Payment cards. As in Money.
If you care about your money, don't
a) present two cards to a reader and then wonder which one was used;
b) leave a card in a bag and then drag it over a reader.
It's a bit like leaving a pouch full of coins laying about, or an enveloped stuff with notes .. and then being shocked they aren't as full as they were when you left them.
@Simon - the French are well known for their luddism...
Most people would just shrug and say 'Well, I haven't got a contactless card, but I've seen quite a few of them about, so I assume quite a few people have, so perhaps I won't make a long, ranty blog post about it because I am not the only person in London.' Not DG, it would seem.
1) But I don't have a contactless card.
2) Why are TfL so worried about card clash?
I've not had a season travelcard for years but habits are hard to unlearn, and I still occasionally try to present my paper ticket on the tube.
Surely it is possible to buy a wallet with embedded Faraday cage to prevent inadvertent activation of contactless cards within? Perhaps with a separate unshielded pocket outside the cage, for the card you want to use?
Or just wrap your cards in tinfoil :)
IF YOU WANT A CONTACTLESS CARD, here's how to get one: ring your bank, tell them your current card is WORN or DAMAGED, and ask them nicely for a replacement. You'll get one, for free, and it'll be contactless.
(The ever helpful firstdirect told me, when I rang them a few years ago, that they weren't simply sending out contactless cards to people who wanted to upgrade: only for cards that were worn or damaged. "But mine is worn and damaged", I said, in a voice suggesting that it clearly wasn't but I understood the game they were playing. "In that case, I'll order you a new card," they replied.)
Ever since I have had a contactless card, it has been impossible to keep my Oyster in the same wallet as my bank cards, because they confuse the reader. So I don't. In any case, waving around your entire wallet in a public area - particularly one that may not have staff hovering around for too much longer - is rather naive.
TfL are worried about card clash because of the reasons you've already given: that you might get charged incorrectly. But for most of us, we've already got into the habit of presenting the Oyster separately anyway.
When the tube accepts contactless cards, would anyone know whether the national rail network Oyster card system will do similar?
I'm not a wallet-swiper (why would anyone take their wallet out in a public space where it could easily be nicked?), but contactless payments via contactless bank cards is going to encourage more people to take their wallets out in a public space, then open them, then dither around taking the card they wish to use out, touch it, go through, and finally block other people whilst they put the card away.
The big problem with using contactless cards on public transport is that you are limited to the number of consecutive contactless transactions you can make (to stop thieves going on a spending spree). So people will suddenly find that they can touch in but can't touch out again, because they reached the transaction limit. I wonder how TfL will solve that, as I'm assuming they've not even thought of it?
@Brian - yes, regular users will soon earn to keep things apart, but it will catch out the unwary tourist or visitor (who, if foreign, may be liable to a hefty transaction charge on each wave and pay transaction anyway. And good luck sorting out an unresolved journey you find on your bank statement back home in Hicksville, USA.
@sycobee
"why would anyone take their wallet out in a public space where it could easily be nicked?)"
How else are you going to use your ticket, Oyster, wave and pay bank card, whatever?
@Briantist
"They are Payment cards. As in Money.
It's a bit like leaving a pouch full of coins laying about, or an enveloped stuff with notes .. and then being shocked they aren't as full as they were when you left them"
How many people actually appreciate that a bank card shut away in a (possibly locked) bag is as open to pilfering as a brown envelope full of fivers left on a table?
Just like the poor sod who'll get the £80 penalty fare on the DLR...
A negative is that it is likely that many of us will have several contactless cards and remembering to use the same one all the time to avoid penalty fares and to take advantage of capping. I suspect I will just keep one such card in my current travelpass holder.
How does one put a travel card or other season ticket on a credit or debit card?
As far as is currently know Oyster Cards will continue to exist, especially for monthly and annual travelcards. There are plans to introduce a weekly cap so PAYG via contactless card won't cost any more than a 7 day travel card, and this may also bring in an off-peak or part-time working travelcard.
"@timbo: Sorry about the multiple post. I was using the free Wifi in Starbucks...
@Simon - the French are well known for their luddism..."
I wonder - has DG set the comments box to do "double charge" for random posts today?!?
Once again, you wonder how many many TfL staff must read dg's blog!
As far as I know the barriers have never taken cash, always needed to get a ticket or travel card or Oyster card first. And a single cash ticket is £4.50 so better to get travel card!
But I do wonder how the ticket inspector on the DLR will know whether or not someone has paid with a contactless card.
I feel too tired to explain the number of reasons why this will be a problem for a proportion of people using public transport.
Yah de dah 'online banking' yes. including all those that can manage that but mostly a large number who don't and can't.
there was a time before "barriers". i just think if people can say 'they are happy not to have a contactless card" then ditto any card. if i want to pay a bus fare with cash why should i be charged more?!
When Oyster cards do disappear, how are we going to get our Gold Card discount - maybe register our card number?
This post is definitely skewing this month’s count!
...let me skew the count even more!
by asking do bees really have knees? an where did this term come from?
For one thing it is interesting how many commenters think that because going cashless is convenient for them personally, it is the right thing to make everyone do it. I find this fascinating.... I mean, what about people who just visit your city and want/need to take a quick bus ride. That is just one scenario but it generally seems that going cashless is going to disenfranchise a lot of people.
Not to mention the comment at 3:22pm about smart phones being ubiquitous, which might or might not be tongue-in-cheek. I have news: not everyone can afford a smart phone.
1. The latest TfL quarterly report update is on the TfL website. It states End March 2014 as a possible start date for bank card acceptance on rail modes and 1 day / 7 day capping. I think it will be a little later than that because the passenger trial was late starting and TfL need time to review how well it went and decide if they need to tweak anything.
2. I think TfL are trying to change behaviours now simply because the upgraded readers are live and people could be / are being inconvenienced now. I assume TfL must occasionally be getting bank card transactions from cards not participating in the trial.
3. There are two papers to the TfL Projects and Planning Panel 26/2/14 which set out where TfL ticketing is heading. Oyster is not supposed to be withdrawn *but* it will be restructured to use "dumb" cards which just generate transactions which are processed later. The present "clever" Oyster Card processes payments and charges in real time with the card and central system needing to be aligned.
4. It is worth considering that the Oyster card readers are capable of reading three forms of card - Oyster, bank cards and ITSO spec cards. At present there are no agreed schemes for ITSO cards to be accepted on the TfL network but this is on the way. Therefore the card clash potential will gain another dimension when ITSO cards issued by TOCs can be accepted on TfL. And don't forget all those nice ITSO spec English National Concessionary Passes which will be able to be read on TfL buses at some point.
5. TfL themselves identify the take up /issue rate of contactless bank cards as the single biggest risk to their Future Ticketing project ( see the TfL papers referred to earlier).
6. The strong emotions about Oyster and dislike of the bank card concept shown in the preceding comments are no surprise.
7. Caroline Pidgeon has raised the issue of being able to register more than one bank card with TfL in Mayor's Questions on 26/2/14. This is presumably to cover off the risk of erroneous card activation by users of bank cards. This would leave TfL with a more complex calculation and charging process but I look forward to reading the Mayor's Answers on this topic.
I have always kept my cards separate and always will. It is by far the simplest way to handle things overall.
Yep. EXACTLY.
AND, on a related note, in respect to this "I fear change. It's all about me. You should only have signs up if they apply to me. We'll all end up as grey goo" ... the issue is not about change, per se. It is about whether change is good or bad (or neutral). In this case there are clear reasons why the change will inconvenience many people, therefore it is deemed bad by many. This is a rational judgement, not an irrational fear. It is actually those who leap at change, especially technological change, thinking it must be good, without proper evaluation or care, probably because they want to be seen as the cool dude with the latest and greatest who are the deluded ones.
At present there's a maximum payment of £20 on contactless with the onus on the banks to pay out if there's a fraudulent transaction. In Australia the limits are much higher but then Australian banks charge an arm and a leg for having a bank account in the first place!
... sounds like someone who wants to keep her job. Myki is overwhelmingly loathed.
"In Australia the limits are much higher but then Australian banks charge an arm and a leg for having a bank account in the first place!"
... and it is worse when we travel. We get slugged for everything.
I think the usual limit is $100 (approx 45 pound at a guess), but I have yet to see someone actually use a contactless card here, although I have seen the readers. I still sign with a credit card, and, even bigger horrors my main account is in an actual passbook / bankbook that I have to go into an actual bank and speak to actual humans to use.
Penetration of mobile phones of any type in the UK is over 100% -- in other words, there is more than one phone in use per person.
Something like three in four new phone purchases are smartphones.
The cheapest smartphones on the market now cost under £50/$60. In a oouple of years the price will be half that.
So, if not now, and remember this is a project working towards the future, smartphones in the UK will be ubiquitous. Especially as the 2G networks that non-smartphones use will be phased out as operators convert their networks to 3G and 4G.
Carry on.
I have no intention of buying a smart phone until my perfectly serviceable dumb phone, bought in 2007, dies, and, only then, if that is all I can buy.
Insect legs are jointed, so bees probably do have knees. But say "They're the business" in an Italian accent and you'll see where the expression probably comes from. (Why cat's whiskers, or certain aspects of canine anatomy, come into it I'm not sure)
Alan B-G, thanks for the update on UK phone availability. I did not know this! Where I live there are deep, tight valleys and no mobile reception possible, but obviously we are discussing London here.
This is all very interesting though.
Antipodean, I just wonder how smart it is to give so much power to things that can get hacked. In the U.S. we have huge hacking problems (search terms: "Target hacking" or "Target hacking credit card") and, like you, I think I prefer to spread the risk out amongst various institutions (and coinage) than have it all in one place (smart phone).
But I think this ship is going to sail regardless of my opinion.
Ah...now it makes sense! thanks timbo.
on a totally different note was tryin to get the comments on this post up to 100! but, as my teacher use to say: must try harder ;)
...and long live cash!
"if i want to pay a bus fare with cash why should i be charged more?!"
Simply because it costs more to handle cash.
Incidentally, though I love using contactless and plastic payment cards in general, I'd be among the first to agree that this isn't to everyone's taste. Similarly I wouldn't stand in the way of anyone who wanted to transport goods by horse and cart. But I prefer more modern means of transportation.
costs more to pay for items under £5/£10 at some of my local stores if i use a card too! but if paid in £1/£2 coins or bank notes no extra charge.
"it costs more" line is a con to impose the cost on customers. likewise the charges for using credit cards to pay for things like car insurance, holidays, VED etc incurring a "charge". Trouble is 'we' as customers are being taken for fools. Plus it of course has a bigger impact on the poorest members of society.
@ Tim "Simply because it costs more to handle cash". With the fees imposed on credit cards, and transactions involving any form of plastic in Oz, I think the reverse is true here!
People travelling around here are used to pretty universal mobile coverage (though you don't need mobile coverage to use the contactless payment system on a smartphone, which is pretty handy as about the only place in London where there is no mobile coverage is in the Underground).
Another snag I can foresee is hapless punters using one bank card for some journeys on one day and another bank card on the same day for other journeys and thus missing out on the PAYG fare cap.
My very first contactless bus journey attempted to charge twice for the same trip but a helpful driver managed to adjust his machine so that it charged for only one.
fill out my quick survey and we will get this sorted.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/27RXSN7
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