please empty your brain below
Changes to 24 hour bus routes are confusing, as you know the 10 was rerouted via Russell Square earlier this year, but on a 24 hour bus service when does the revised routeing actually start?

Apparently the first two night buses (defined as when the frequency is reduced from every 12 minutes to every 30 minutes) from Kings Cross were actually workings off the daytime schedule, so these still ran via Warren Street, so the first buses from Kings Cross to run via Russell Square did so an hour after the frequency was reduced to every 30 minutes.

| 26.08.16 - 7:12 a.m. | #

They have made quite a hash of that, and your clearer version works much better. It also invites confusion in literal thinkers as Friday night is really early Saturday morning.

Supermarkets have been known to struggle in showing 24 hour opening, fudging the times to fit their templates. It can give the impression they simultaneously open and close at midnight.

Brendan | 26.08.16 - 7:14 a.m. | #

In your version, as you said near the start, there's no way to know when the 2-5 minutes changes to be 10 minutes. Plus, having the "last train" be "night tube" seems quite confusing to me. A casual glance at Saturday could even give the impression that the night tube runs all day!

Sorry, but TfL's version seems perfectly clear and reasonable to me. So one or two trains a day are labelled as being both a day time train and a night tube train... big deal.

Jim | 26.08.16 - 7:32 a.m. | #

Yes it seems clear to me as well. The proposed changes would surely add to the confusion.

Sean O'Brien | 26.08.16 - 7:56 a.m. | #

I agree with Jim...big deal. Most people who can/have to make sense of it will. It not like there is a great deal of demand for trains at those 'change-over' times. Also it may serve the purpose of TfL 'covering their backs' if for some reason the night-tube/'normal' service is suspended. More issues arise from having to change the clocks twice a year than some 'oddity' on a timetable on a couple of lines on a service used only at the weekends by mostly drunks/party-goers/and blog writers.

E | 26.08.16 - 8:04 a.m. | #

Wouldn't part of the reason for the distinction be so they have times to list for engineering works? Having a last train time would be useful for "Due to engineering works, there will be no night tube on the Central line this weekend"

Jeroen te Strake | 26.08.16 - 8:16 a.m. | #

Sorry to be an anal trainspotter DG.. but I'd say the 0002 from Loughton is the first night tube train. Mondays-Thursdays it terminates at Loughton, and it is also a 3xx series train which marks it out as 'night tube' on Saturday and Sunday mornings.

Alfie | 26.08.16 - 8:28 a.m. | #

The day will come when LU needs to engineering works on night tube nights. If they and the customers get used to the end of a "normal" day, then it might be easier to communicate when night tube isn't running

100andthirty | 26.08.16 - 8:35 a.m. | #

Perhaps it's to distinguish when the staff hourly rate goes from expensive to stratospheric.

Running Correspondent | 26.08.16 - 8:37 a.m. | #

Even without the added complication of a Night Tube, there's got to be a way to show the information in the first column more clearly.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 26.08.16 - 8:43 a.m. | #

When the Night Tube was being mooted, the unions objected, so LU hired in a special cohort of night drivers and workers IIRC. So might this demarcation be when conditions of employment change from Normal to Special ?

I agree that the overlap creates its own Muddle Factor.

petras409 | 26.08.16 - 8:50 a.m. | #

Part of the confusion arises because TfL defines the changeover between days based on the Oyster cutoff of 0430 rather than midnight. Hence describing Night Tube as running on Friday and Saturday nights, rather than Saturday and Sunday mornings. However I also appreciate that it is counter intuitive to look for details of "last trains" (or for them to be described as) at the beginning of the following day. DG's suggested changes overcome this problem, but, as noted by others, are less helpful if and when Night Tube services are temporarily suspended.

Brock | 26.08.16 - 9:00 a.m. | #

(Knowing when the night tube starts is relevant if one is doing a tube challenge or similar on it).

I prefer DG's version of the poster, though some comments above make it clear that it is not really clear-cut, and there is something to be said for the way TfL have done it. TfL are very careful with their "brands", and Night Tube is indeed a brand (as well as being a service).

The time of changeover to night tube is, from what I have heard, far from being a quiet moment when nobody will notice what you do. In fact it sounds as if it is a little rush hour all of its own.

24/6 supermarkets do indeed have problems displaying a rather similar set-up, though at least a supermarket closes all at one time, unlike a train service where the answer logically has to vary station to station.

Malcolm | 26.08.16 - 9:43 a.m. | #

The best way to avoid confusion would be if the tube drivers wore owl masks when it was a night service, then you would know as the train pulled into the station. They could also precede any announcements over the PA system with a series of hoots.

David | 26.08.16 - 10:13 a.m. | #

How are 24 hour bus services displayed?
Surely all that is needed is (taking that last display, which is presumably somewhere near Loughton)

Westbound to White City
Mon - Thu 0519-2354 every 3-10 minutes
2354-0519 no service

Friday 0519-2354 every 3-10 minutes
Fri night 0002-0519 every 20 minutes

Saturday 0519-2354 every 3-10 minutes
Sat night 0002-0643 every 20 minutes

Sunday 0643-2307 every 3-10 minutes
Sun night 2307-0519 no service

timbo | 26.08.16 - 10:25 a.m. | #

They provided similarly convoluted info during the Hammersmith Flyover closures.

For example:
"The flyover will be closed as follows:
• Westbound from 22:30 on Friday until 22:30 on Saturday, and also from 09:30 until 18:00 on Sunday
• In both directions from 22:30 on Saturday until 09:30 on Sunday, and also from 18:00 on Sunday until 05:00 on Monday"

This translates to:
Westbound always, with additional overnight eastbound.

Greg S | 26.08.16 - 10:26 a.m. | #

I would like to know what the 'hard-workers' do during the week when the 'night-tube' is not operational. Think most people turning up for a tube train at the 'problematic' times will 1) see station is open and venture in 2) see indicator/matrix board displays a train is due 3) get on said train. They will not be consulting some 'badly' written timetable. This is probably done so some blogger draws attention to it... thus increases the usage of the night-tube. So perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel

Grumpy Anon | 26.08.16 - 10:55 a.m. | #

Clarity and Tfl...

Read the standard Goblin closure message as in this week's Weekend travel information email...

Until February 2017, there are closures on the Gospel Oak to Barking line as follows:
• Trains will not run between South Tottenham and Barking for the entire period
• At weekends, and on bank holiday Monday, there will be no service between Gospel Oak and Barking

Surely that should read

Trains will not run between South Tottenham and Barking for the entire period. There is a Monday - Friday ( not bank holiday Monday ) service Gospel Oak - South Tottenham.

To me the exisiting version implies to those that don't know the individual stations on the route that there are trains Gospel Oak - Barking on weekdays.



ap | 26.08.16 - 10:56 a.m. | #

@greg S
How you are supposed to comprehend those signs whilst driving I don't know. (and why are bus lanes operative days marked as "Mon-Sun" instead of the clearer "every day", or even the default of saying nothing at all?)

I have eventually deciphered that sign to say that the flyover is closed westbound continuously from 2230 on Friday until 0500 on Monday, and eastbound two shorter closures 22:30 on Saturday until 09:30 on Sunday,
18:00 on Sunday until 05:00 on Monday

timbo | 26.08.16 - 11:03 a.m. | #

I am with Timbo: list the periods when normal services start and stop, and when night tube services start and stop (or indeed a period with no services), and the frequency in each case.

His format (above) is easier to read than TfL's, and (to me at least) a but less confusing than DG's suggesting, which suggests that Night Tube runs from some time (06:03?) on Friday through to 23:57 on Sunday.

Andrew | 26.08.16 - 1:02 p.m. | #

The Evening Standard announces that the Jubilee Line will get a night service starting at in October.

It also suggests there are plans for the Circle Line, so that "all of the main line stations will be connected"......although as most of the main line stations have no night service of their own there seems little point in this!

timbo | 26.08.16 - 1:45 p.m. | #

Strictly speaking, 6pm to midnight Friday is 'Friday night' and midnight to 6am Saturday is 'Saturday night'.

Adrian | 26.08.16 - 2:16 p.m. | #

No Adrian, 1am on Saturday is not Saturday night, strictly or otherwise. It is either Friday night or Saturday morning, depending on context.

Steve | 26.08.16 - 2:37 p.m. | #

Right. The only way to avoid confusion about the meaning of Xday night is to forget the word night altogether. Valid and clear times run from 0001 to 2359, on a stipulated day or date. No train is allowed to do anything at 2400 or 0000, because those times are unclear as to date. A clockface service at xx00 is described as 2300, 2359 and then 0100, for this reason. (Or 2300, 0001 and 0100).

Malcolm | 26.08.16 - 3:37 p.m. | #

Just to really confuse matters, if you look at the relevant Working Timetables, the trains that form the "Night Tube" service don't necessarily just come out at night!

Central Line train 306, for example, starts from Woodford Sidings at 06:28 on Friday, and berths at Hainault Depot at 05:20 on Saturday, whilst train 320 starts from Ruislip Depot at 15:40 on Friday, and berths at Loughton Sidings at 02:14 on Saturday.

Meanwhile, over on the Victoria Line, train 201 starts from Brixton Platform 1 at 05:26 on Friday, stables at Northumberland Park depot from 10:44 to 14:48, then finishes at Northumberland Park at 10:10 on Saturday.

Barry S | 26.08.16 - 3:59 p.m. | #

Just to add to the confusion, liturgical days in both the Jewish and Christian faiths start at sunset, so in winter the Jewish Sabbath can start as early as 4pm on Friday afternoon. (This is also why the first service of Christian festivals takes place in the evening before the actual calendar day)

Midnight trains seem to be shown departing at 2359 but arriving at 0001 - presumably to avoid accusations of early departure or late arrival should they actually keep to the standard clockface times.

And 12am and 12pm are never correct. Noon is neither ante nor post meridiem: it is meridiem. Midnight is both 12 hours before and 12 hours after noon.

If you must use Latin tags, they would be md (meridiem), although "noon" is clearer, and mn (media noctis)

timbo | 26.08.16 - 4:04 p.m. | #

This already looks as if it going to be worse than the 'bus stop(s) saga'. Oh well...

Grumpy Anon | 26.08.16 - 4:12 p.m. | #

I've had another go at simplifying the 'first and last trains' table.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 26.08.16 - 4:54 p.m. | #

You could, on entering the station, always ask one of the many staff now on duty to help with this sort of thing?

The Legendary Zelda | 26.08.16 - 5:25 p.m. | #

This is GCSE stuff: wot's gonna 'appen on Sunday 30 October when the clocks go back, that'll be PhD stuff. Let's hope that no new Night Services are scheduled to be introduced that weekend!

Smart Alec | 26.08.16 - 5:59 p.m. | #

That's great Running Correspondent, sneer at the train crew, after all it's the open season just for a change isn't it?

Anonymous | 26.08.16 - 7:34 p.m. | #

No new night services start on the weekend that the clocks go back, the Jubilee night tube though does start on October 14th.

Geofftech | 26.08.16 - 9:09 p.m. | #

I thought it was Oct 7th the Jubilee service started

Timbo | 26.08.16 - 9:51 p.m. | #

As always, DG has done a far better job than the whole of the mighty TfL empire when it comes to presenting information clearly and succinctly to Joe Public.

I'd vote for the third mini-poster from the end, the one that says 'Maybe a bit more like this?' Yes, please !

But sadly a definite NO to the second mini-poster from the end, the one with the long dashes. They are logically suspect for two reasons:-

1. Timetables traditionally use the long dash symbol to denote that a train is not calling at certain stations. So at a glance it looks like there is no service at all on Saturdays (think of First Train and Last Station as being station names !)

2. The message isn't clear and positive because the dashes are effectively using double negatives to say 'Trains Won't Not Run'.

It's not really needed, but the text could be simplified to 'Night Tube runs every 10 minutes, and every 2 - 5 minutes at other operational times'.

Gerry | 26.08.16 - 10:30 p.m. | #

Times of night buses, whether publicly dislayed as "N" bus or not, are easily found. TfL now release detailed schedules, as used by the bus companies, for every route. In TfL there is always a "N" variant of every route that runs through the night regardless of the public presentation.

So for the Night 25 or Night 69 journeys you would search for N25 or N69 in the TfL schedules lookup page. This shows the precise workings of the night time journeys. For daytime journeys you'd enter 25 or 69 for the above examples.

For those who are interested :-

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/bus-schedules

PS - I fear DG is trying to be over precise in terms of the Night Tube start times. I doubt anyone's really *that* bothered.

PC | 27.08.16 - 12:28 a.m. | #

@PC

Somebody in TfL clearly is "that" bothered, as evidenced by the excessive precision in the actual TfL posters. Isn't that the point DG is making?

timbo | 27.08.16 - 7:28 a.m. | #

With 20 minute Night Tube intervals on the Central Line branches, surely proper printed timetables on display are now needed?

Kim | 27.08.16 - 1:59 p.m. | #

Of course bus working timetables often go up to 25xx and sometimes up to 27xx.

As to what happens on DST night - I'm guessing there will be a TTN covering the entirety of Sunday, as it will mess up which trains are where.

Kirk | 27.08.16 - 2:23 p.m. | #

For the DST changeover what I presume will happen is that an hour's services are duplicated (or omitted in spring), which works because it's running to a standard clockface timetable. Simple from a passenger's point of view because there will be a train at both instances of 01:xx running functionally the same service.

In the WTT on the other hand it'll make a right mess of everything because the Night Tube level of service will now last seven (or five) hours instead of the normal six, meaning that careful planning would be needed to avoid trains ending up out of place and screwing up driver rosters.

Sarah | 28.08.16 - 5:37 a.m. | #

Why would you need to know whether an individual run is "Night Tube" or not? Better, as DG suggests, to completely leave those details out than to provide such irrelevant information.

But there is a relevant difference between Normal Tube and Night Tube - the interval between trains. In those terms, it makes perfect sense that one particular train is both the end of normal service and the start of night service.

Jonathan D | 29.08.16 - 1:01 a.m. | #











TridentScan v2.10.0 | Privacy Policy