please empty your brain below
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Plus we don't all have contactless cards, do we?
Not if we've got any sense. My bank sent me one and I insisted they sent me a non-contactless one. They're not 100% safe, as an acquaintance of ours found when she ended up inadvertently paying with the wrong card.
Cashless buses will save time too.
They manage it in other countries...
Blue Witch | Homepage | 10.10.13 - 7:10 a.m. | #
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The people who will suffer most are ... the bus drivers. The people that do a great job couped up behind their protective windows for 8 hours a shift, will - inevitably - be abused at by some person (drunk, late on a Friday night) who's only got cash and takes it out on the driver.
geofftech | Homepage | 10.10.13 - 7:10 a.m. | #
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I responded because I am worried about the safety of women* at night - i.e being forced to walk rather than catch a bus because they don't have cash on their Oyster or a magic non-contactless card (never heard of these, by the way). On purely utilitarian grounds I'd rather a longer trip than someone running the risk of walking and being assaulted.
*and others, but mainly women.
Antipodean | 10.10.13 - 7:27 a.m. | #
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A month or so ago, I was getting the bus and we were all being held up by a woman who presented a £20 note, and had no cash.
In the end I paid her £1.40 on a contactless card, just so we could get going, having paid my fare on my Oyster card.
Briantist | Homepage | 10.10.13 - 7:29 a.m. | #
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Surely the answer to using a bank which doesn't issue contact-less cards is to move your account. I'm aware of at least two mainstream banks that issue contact-less as standard and there are probably more. In any case, according to London Reconnections, the future is likely to see a move away from dedicated smart cards towards use of the chip in your bank card or mobile phone.
rjnet | Homepage | 10.10.13 - 7:37 a.m. | #
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While it's eventually a good idea, I think they overestimate the market penetration of CPC. My bank now issues them, but they didn't last year when both my debit and credit cards renewed. End of 2015 before I get one now. (And it's not worth changing all my direct debits, Paypal and whatnot for a feature I'll use once a month at most)
Chz | 10.10.13 - 7:54 a.m. | #
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I don't want a contactless card, thanks. I'll be hanging onto my Oyster card in preference to CTC for as long as they'll let me.
diamond geezer | 10.10.13 - 8:09 a.m. | #
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This is a very disturbing erosion of the idea that public transport should really be public. Much effort goes into helping the relatively small number of people who have disabilities to use buses and other forms of transport, laws have been passed to make it happen, and rightly so. No-one says 'there aren't very many of them, and they are a lot of trouble, let's not bother'.
Stilted Banter | 10.10.13 - 8:15 a.m. | #
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(Missed the last line off my comment above, which was of course to the effect that the same principle should apply to people paying cash.)
Stilted Banter | 10.10.13 - 8:17 a.m. | #
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Recently a friend visited from outside London and we decided to get the bus. However, the ticket machine which used to be located at my regular bus stop (in Peckham) has vanished, as have other ticket machines in the vicinity. Previously, a ticket could be bought before boarding the bus, but on this occasion we had to pay cash to the driver.
Phil Goodfactor | 10.10.13 - 8:24 a.m. | #
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Same problem with my daughters young teen relative who came to stay for a few days in the summer from the countryside. It was a last minute decision and there was no time for her to apply for a photocard.
For the busy tourist days we bought child travelcards but that was a waste of money when all they wanted to do was to get the bus to the nearest shopping centre and only cash would work!
CornishCockney | 10.10.13 - 9:02 a.m. | #
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All roadside ticket machines have gone - they were costing more to empty than was being collected from them.
martin | 10.10.13 - 9:02 a.m. | #
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Yes, 1% is a lot of people. I'm often on a bus 'held up', mainly by a tourist who is also a bit short of proficiency in English. On a journey on which 100 people get on the bus, statistically one will pay cash. Must be quite often then.
Dave | 10.10.13 - 9:34 a.m. | #
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How will tourists (including occasional visitors from the provinces) manage? Someone gets off his form of transport (not neccessarily a plane, train etc. where one would hope there is a 24/7 possibility of buying a card) at an unusual location - say he got a lift to the North Circular just where his friend's girlfriend lives. How will he find where to get a card - if the place is open at the hour he arrives?
Dave | 10.10.13 - 9:42 a.m. | #
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On the people being left at bus stops thing, especially late at night - bus drivers already have the discretion to admit people on to the bus who they believe are vulnerable. They can be issued with a "fare not paid" ticket.
Of course, not many people know this - including some bus drivers.
As for contactless cards, I confess to having become a fan recently. So much easier and less faff - and they are restricted to a £20 max. And if there's fraud, the bank should refund you. But they're certainly not universal. I have cards from three different providers - only one dishes out contactless cards.
This, and the whole "nowhere to top up late and night" are my big reservations on TfL's plan.
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 10.10.13 - 9:50 a.m. | #
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I have already submitted comments to the TfL exercise, (and to my MLA, as I have no confidence in the "consultation" process). I also picked up on the "is 1% a lot or a few" point.
The idea that you can have "one free go" on a exhausted Oyster is all very well provided it hasn't been lost, stolen, damaged, already maxed out and in negative equity due to some barrier error earlier in the day, or confiscated by officialdom (as can happen to children on the slightest suspicion of a problem: the inspectors have a nasty habit of confiscating the card first "pending enquiries")
What if your journey home requires two buses? (Why do bus fares not allow transfers anyway - you don't pay twice to change from one tube line - or indeed tram route - to another)
What if a visitor to London has just arrived at Heathrow on a delayed flight and the last Tube has gone?
Not everyone has wave and pay - some people haven't got it yet, others refuse to have it, some people, (notably children) do not have bank accounts in the first place.
And you can't pay someone else's fare for them unless you have two independent means of paying - you can't pay two fares with the same Oyster or CPC card. Even if you do have a second means of payment, you can't do so unless you are travelling with them at least as far as their destination (so I can't just give, or lend, someone their bus fare home).
Yes, cash handling is a pain. But if TfL is providing a PUBLIC transport service it should be available to all the public, not just those who are members of the Oyster club.
timbo | 10.10.13 - 9:56 a.m. | #
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@Andrew Bowden
"bus drivers already have the discretion to admit people on to the bus who they believe are vulnerable"
I am not entirely sure I have complete confidence in the judgement of bus drivers to correctly identify in 100% of cases who is vulnerable and who is trying to pull a fast one. I expect there will be quite a few plausibly tearful liars getting free rides, as well as the rather more serious situation of not-obviously vulnerable people left stranded.
timbo | 10.10.13 - 10:03 a.m. | #
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I all for cashless and have responded to the consultation, I'm on the buses for work a lot and increasingly the scam is to show a high denomination note in order to board free (almost all drivers seem to give in on this). Personally though I'd like drivers to sell oystercards in £5, £10, £20 denominations for notes only that would sort the scam out!
Nicks | 10.10.13 - 10:13 a.m. | #
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There are two points getting mixed up here re contactless cards.
If major UK banks are still issuing non-contactless (ugh) cards by default, that's a) utterly pathetic of them, and b) does suggest that TfL's plan is being brought in a bit too early.
But if people are worried about contactless cards and hence are demanding special issues of old-style cards, they're completely wrong to do so, thoroughly deserve any inconvenience they make for themselves by so doing, and this absolutely shouldn't be a concern for TfL.
Contactless cards are more secure than magstrip cards (so unless you destroy the magstrip on your credit card before use, there's no sense in objecting). And unlike chip-and-PIN, all fraud reporting for contactless transactions is in the customer's favour - ie the bank will reverse any transaction unless the merchant can prove you're lying.
(the idea of the driver selling Oysters for cash is a nice one, but brings back all the cash-handling and security costs the switch is supposed to eliminate...)
john b | Homepage | 10.10.13 - 10:37 a.m. | #
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Maybe TFL could put up "Oyster Card Dispensers" in place of the old ticket machines. Stick a tenner in, get an Oyster Card with a fiver on the card. This would get around the issue that shops are shut at night. But a lot would be needed. Maybe the bus driver could be the dispenser - notes for pre-loaded oyster is a quicker than loads of coins for a ticket, although I guess a receipt would still be needed.
Maybe cashless buses could run at peak times only, when the cash delay is actually a pain in the arse.
Sykobee | 10.10.13 - 11:00 a.m. | #
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Ah, the anti-Contactless Card brigade. Forgive me, but I'm fairly sure that when Oyster cards came in (a contactless technology - you don't have to physically touch in and touch out, you can hold it just above the reader) I heard all the same arguments - and how it wouldn't take off.
Yet a few years later ...
Jordan D | 10.10.13 - 11:01 a.m. | #
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I can see why people might be against contactless cards - if your card's lost or stolen, then someone can go and make lots of sub-£20 transactions without a PIN. But as John B points out (and perhaps the banks should be making more fuss about), the cardholder isn't liable.
The amount of places accepting contactless payment is steadily increasing - it's particularly convenient in a busy pub, where you don't need to faff about with change or waiting for the bartender to wait for the card machine to connect.
martin | 10.10.13 - 11:08 a.m. | #
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Is that right Timbo, you cant pay two fares with the same bank card? Or someone else's fare to a different destination? That sounds pretty outrageous seeing as these contactless cards are touted as being a direct substitute for cash. Where do the restrictions come from?
CPC payments are clearly taking off in London; it's not something that's had a noticeable impact on me yet now I'm up north, but I confess to being sceptical. Payments are taken from the wrong card sometimes, and you have to notice before you can get a refund, and why would you want the hassle? When you have cash in your wallet, it's easy to estimate at a glance how much is left. And the CPC/Oyster comparison doesn't wash; although they use the same technology, Oyster can only be used to pay for a very restricted range of things in very definite and obvious locations.
Sarah | Homepage | 10.10.13 - 11:11 a.m. | #
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Beware the politicians' friend, the percentage mark - "only 1%" paying cash?
In real numbers, that's 60,000 people a day as London Buses carry six million journeys each working day, which can include Saturdays, as more leisure travellers are about, to balance out the Mon-Fri only working people.
Those who haven't gone over to Oyster are people who have no advantage from a smartcard, or can't afford to put money up front, even with the savings which come from that.
Joel Kosminsky | 10.10.13 - 11:49 a.m. | #
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What is a "bog standard"? What sort of bank sends out a non-CPC debit card in the year twenty-thirteen?
E | 10.10.13 - 12:24 p.m. | #
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I don't particularly welcome this idea. Not many bus stops will even have somewhere close by to buy an Oyster card if you've not got one (or forgot it, lost it, left it at home) and even if they do it may well be closed.
Whilst London at the moment seems likely to be the only place to adopt this I expect other cities and urban areas will follow suit. I travel around the country a lot and I don't particularly relish the prospect of having to carry a wallet full of different smartcards for each city I might visit in order to use a bus. Nor do I want to have money locked up in smart cards for cities I once visited but may never go back to (or who might have a different smart card by the time I go back).
Contactless cards do help with this to some degree as I have one of those and if that is the "standard" card to use it would help because you then wouldn't need different cards for each city. But I must admit, despite some comments on here those cards do worry me a bit. What's to stop someone getting one of the devices you wave the cards over at the till and getting on a crowded tube or bus and waving it near peoples pockets and debiting money from their accounts? Yes banks may refund it but it takes time and hassle to sort and it doesn't really help if you suddenly find fraudulant transactions have pushed you overdrawn and you can't use your card or withdraw cash until you get it sorted.
Jon Combe | 10.10.13 - 12:42 p.m. | #
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@sarah
"Is that right Timbo, you cant pay two fares with the same card, or someone else's fare to a different destination?"
That's my understanding.
How would the system manage any "cap"? (or what if I have a travelcard loaded on so I'm not actually paying any extra for this trip?
Also, say that I pay your fare for you. We arrive at my stop and I leave the bus, but you stay on. At the next stop an inspector gets on. Where's the proof your fare has been paid?
timbo | 10.10.13 - 3:46 p.m. | #
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Sarah - "Payments are taken from the wrong card sometimes"
If the contactless reader detects two cards, or a card and an oyster, it should error rather than picking one at random. This was one of the key requirements for contactless in the first place.
Sykobee | 10.10.13 - 4:18 p.m. | #
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Lots of cities' bus/tram networks are cashless. In Eastern Europe, a standard practice would be to sell bus tickets at news kiosks, which of course aren't open all the time. It behoves the traveller to be prepared.
Chris | 10.10.13 - 4:32 p.m. | #
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You can buy Oyster cards from most LU stations (incl. North Greenwich) as the ticket machines (the smaller kind) vend these.
Joby | 10.10.13 - 5:16 p.m. | #
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Came across a man without a drivers licence/passport or tenancy in his own name - he was struggling to even open an basic bank account owing to having no 'acceptable' ID. Although an extreme case, I'm in no doubt that a lot of very disadvantaged people have to occassionally catch a bus and will use cash to pay. Technology is all fine and good but we need to ensure that we are not creating an underclass in the process.
B | 10.10.13 - 5:59 p.m. | #
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If nightbuses are such an issue why not sell oyster cards in cluubs and late-opening pubs.
whiff | 10.10.13 - 6:30 p.m. | #
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Contactless cards are no less secure than Chip and Pin.
Admittedly this is "not very secure", but if you have a Chip and Pin card, you should not be fussing about whether to get contactless.
All these "ooh it took it off the wrong card" things are people who are crying wolf.
Kirk | 10.10.13 - 11:15 p.m. | #
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Presenting one card at a time on the Oyster readers is a good start - that said, I've been double-charged on my Oyster card on buses on more than one occasion.
martin | 10.10.13 - 11:17 p.m. | #
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Having just read your original post back in 2003 I was amused by this comment:
"I was reading about Oyster the other day. Seems like a profit focussed revenue model rather than value oriented, so I doubt it will become as indispensible as the Octopus is in Hong Kong. Still, a step in the right direction."
Ah, isn't hindsight an amazing thing.
Adam L | 10.10.13 - 11:31 p.m. | #
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@Andrew Bowden
"bus drivers already have the discretion to admit people on to the bus who they believe are vulnerable"
I agree with Timbo, I don't trust 'discretion', especially since there are those who think that drunk women in nightclub gear are sluts who either deserve to be taught a lesson or must be faking it. Similar yet different, in the city I live in (not in the UK) the taxi industry is being investigated because many drivers have been (best case) suggestive (worst case) raping women customers who have the audacity to travel alone, travel intoxicated, or be wearing 'suggestive' clothing (apparently a business suit is considered suggestive by some).
Antipodean | 11.10.13 - 7:33 a.m. | #
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Why can't people just look after themselves (or their children) and ensure they have enough credit on their oyster card before travelling or intending to travel? Other countries manage cashless public transport systems - London will not be a ground breaker this time...
tim | 11.10.13 - 8:38 a.m. | #
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I currently keep my Oyster card with my bank cards (including contactless which I love). If I lose my wallet on a night out tonight I am in no worse position than I would be when buses go cashless. I have to walk, phone a friend or visit a police station. Under a cashless system I might even have the advantage of a driver taking pity on me, putting me in a better position than I'm currently in.
The alternative is for TfL to unofficially tell night bus drivers to allow anyone to get on for free (not including trouble makers) whether it sounds genuine or a sob story. I don't know the breakdown of fares on night buses but if the majority are via a travelcard, TfL only risks losing revenue to a few who will try their luck by wanting to save their pay as you go allowance. Most people will continue to present an Oyster PAYG or travelcard out of habit if nothing else. If letting a few scammers get away with a free fare is cheaper than the cost of administering cash then so be it.
R | 11.10.13 - 8:58 a.m. | #
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"All these "ooh it took it off the wrong card" things are people who are crying wolf."
Oh no they're not Kirk.
If you happen to put your wallet containing several contactless cards too close to the reader while you are getting the card you want to pay with out, there is a danger that it will read a card still in your wallet.
I've seen a real-life demo of it in my local Boots (staff 'just seeing what if'), and we know someone it actually happened to in a coffee shop.
I mind the pennies too much to want to take the chance. PAYG Oyster too doesn't always take the correct amount, and even when you touch in and out (and you know it's worked as the barrier opens when you do) it still doesn't always deduct the right amount - especially when you do multiple journeys in a day on different forms of transport.
Most people would never bother to check, or notice these things though (after all, who knows what the fare actually should be for journeys they undertake and who bothers to look up what they've atually been charged?). But, they'll all be working till they're 70+++ :)
Blue Witch | Homepage | 11.10.13 - 9:03 a.m. | #
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If multiple cards at once are taking deductions, that sounds firmly like a flaw in the reader/tills. For starters, the till should know that an overpayment has been made. And if the till doesn't know it's had a double payment, then it's especially shoddy.
It doesn't mean that there's a problem with contactless cards - it means that there's a problem with some equipment.
Besides which, if you have multiple contactless cards in a wallet, then you should not be presenting them all to the reader at once! Systems should be designed for customers who do stupid things, but frankly customers should also not do stupid things. Some people have it in their head that they can just shove their wallet on the reader. Which is fine if you just have one contactless card. But long term people won't have one contactless card - they'll have a wallet full.
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 11.10.13 - 9:25 a.m. | #
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Not what I said Andrew.
And it's irrelevant whether the problem is the reader or the whole concept. It's the consumer who ends up with the problem to sort out, so any fraction of a minute saved by contactless rather than chip and PIN payment will be lost many times over.
Blue Witch | Homepage | 11.10.13 - 12:49 p.m. | #
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It's not irrelevant. It's the same as saying "this bus broke down, therefore all buses breakdown and all buses are therefore crap and should be banned."
But as I said, the vast majority of customers who have problems wouldn't need to sort out problems if they behave sensibly.
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 11.10.13 - 12:59 p.m. | #
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the vast majority of customers who have problems wouldn't need to sort out problems if they behave sensibly
Not the real world.
Blue Witch | Homepage | 11.10.13 - 1:09 p.m. | #
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It's all very well trying to save time/money but when that change has such a potential to remove the "safety net" of being able to pay in cash when you don't have the other options available, I think it's going too far.
I regularly use the buses and being held up by a cash user is much less frequent than someone getting on with a depleted Oyster, swatting it at the reader a few times and throwing a strop when the driver tells them they need to pay or get off.
I can see TfL's point about cash handling costs but I think the benefits of accepting cash much outweigh the drawbacks.
Moogal | 11.10.13 - 1:59 p.m. | #
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This cost that TfL say they have to pay? Do they mean their bus operators, as let’s not forget they don't run any buses themselves I would be surprised if the bus operators are really passing on big costs for cash handling. If they really think the bus operators are going to cut the cost per mile down massively as a result of this, it would be interesting to see how they calculated this? I would have said that as suggested earlier, maybe it would be a good thing for drivers to sell oyster cards or even let you top them up in £10 lumps. You don’t get many people who pay cash on the bus, but it is sometimes surprising how many you can get (Sunday evenings especially). I have walked 10 minutes to the bus stop and realised I left my pass at home, so have just paid the cash fare.
David S | 11.10.13 - 6:04 p.m. | #
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Apologies for being slightly off-piste, but can someone tell me what the cash position is, please? My 15-yr-old son is going to London (from the sticks) next week and will need to take bus and tube journeys for the day he is there. We hadn't realised in time that an Oyster card would have saved loads as he is 15, so he will have to pay for any journeys he makes. I read TFL's website which seemed to suggest that you should buy bus tickets from a machine at the bus-stop, but comments seem to imply they no longer work. So can you pay cash to the driver on a bus, and for the tube (presumably at a ticket office)?
Sorry I haven't lived in London since 1984 so I think things have changed rather since then.
allotmentqueen | Homepage | 11.10.13 - 10:24 p.m. | #
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For three pounds you can get an oyster card from the automatic machine at any tune station.
Cashless bus operation has not started yet... Except on the N73...
Briantist | Homepage | 11.10.13 - 10:28 p.m. | #
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As he is 15 he could have had a Zip card which gives free travel on the buses, and child fares on the tube, but they need to be applied for in advance and, it appears, collected by the child's parent (not much help if he's a foreign exchange student, for example!).
As others have said, anyone can buy an adult Oyster at a tube station. (and some newsagents I think). The Oyster is cheaper than paying cash fares. You can also pay cash on the buses.
The ticket machines were only used on bendybus routes (which never accepted cash on board) and in the West End. Most have gone now
timbo | 11.10.13 - 10:46 p.m. | #
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Sorry for being so ignorant ... so 15 yr-old can buy adult oyster card for £3 at Victoria Coach Station. Does he not then have to top it up somehow to pay for any fares?
allotmentqueen | Homepage | 11.10.13 - 10:57 p.m. | #
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It's £5 deposit now... top it up with another £5 to make it £10 to pay
I still don't see why drivers can't sell new Oyster cards for £10, coins not accepted. Handling notes is much easier obviously.
Jhon | 12.10.13 - 6:18 a.m. | #
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Allotment Queen - if it's too late for your son to apply for the Zipcard and the associated Oyster photocard the best bet is probably a day travelcard which you can buy in advance. The various regulations are explained here.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx
Whiff | 12.10.13 - 7:05 a.m. | #
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Meanwhile back on the original subject - if TFL are so concerned about the cost of handling money why don't they put up the surcharge on cash fares to cover the current shortfall.
Whiff | 12.10.13 - 7:07 a.m. | #
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For CPC issues see http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/Using_contactless_payment_cards_on_buses.pdf
E.g. "From time to time your card issuer requires that you enter your PIN as a security check. If this happens when you are on a bus you will not be able to use your contactless payment card to pay for your journey". Now it's pay cash. Then it will be walk...
Martin | 12.10.13 - 8:23 a.m. | #
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... Also, whereas I'm not sure that contactless cards are a big thing here I do know that they don't travel well. Inside Europe, maybe, but a lot of banks in other countries charge huge fees for overseas use. The card of preference for travel is a travel money card, as far as I know this is not contactless, and unlikely to be for reasons of security.
Antipodean | 12.10.13 - 8:36 a.m. | #
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Be fair, Blue Witch. You're a lightning rod for anything that can go wrong a lot of the time. I've used Oyster PAYG on a daily basis for years and I audit it every two weeks for expense reports. I've honestly never been overcharged without already knowing about it (delays, broken readers, etc). Or rather, I have but there's always been an automated refund 24 hours later.
Simple solution, anyways. Don't like CPC? Don't use it. Until it is literally everywhere, we're all going to have to carry cash for <£20 purchases anyhow.
Chz | 12.10.13 - 9:01 a.m. | #
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P.S. Consultation has now closed.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 12.10.13 - 9:22 a.m. | #
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