please empty your brain below
dg writes: fixed thanks.
The walk from the suburban platforms at Paddington to the tube, usually followed by another change to get anywhere useful is a continual drain on morale.
dg writes: fixed thanks.
It's a bit confusing to discuss, because some of the services offered are completely new (you cannot travel today without changing from Canary Wharf to Ealing Broadway, for instance), whereas some of them are replacing (sometimes supplementing) existing services (Shenfield to Liverpool Street, for instance, where the only improvements are longer, slightly-faster trains, but at similar intervals to today).
;o)
Changing, where necessary, will be very simple - just wait on the same platform, anywhere between Whitechapel and Paddington, for the next train. Passengers on what used to be called the Metropolitan Line, but is now sensibly called by three different names for the three different services, will be familiar with the concept, as will users of Thameslink, or most German S-bahnen.
I can't imagine that there are many people who take the train just the one stop from Hanwell to West Ealing. Over that distance, the greater frequency of buses, and the greater density of stops, trumps the faster station to station speed.
I never realised the proposed service pattern included virtually no trains from the Shenfield Branch to Heathrow. 4tph to Heathrow seems a little mean too.
Martin, what else could it be? I'm kinda hoping dg isn't the only one to ignore spurious alternative suggestions. I did notice, although, that the Substandard had fallen for a particularly ill conceived and unwieldy recommendation.
@ Grumpy Anon - no toilets on Crossrail trains. Toilets in the stations will be provided instead. Why would dogs be banned? They're not banned today on trains and certainly not guide or assistance dogs. Bicycles we shall have to wait and see but I'd expect them to be permitted off peak and folding bikes at all times. Tube trains have no means of reaching the Crossrail tracks so that's a "no". Tube trains also don't have the same performance as the new Crossrail trains so would interfere with the service. As for 24 hour trains then no official announcements about that yet. If I was to speculate I would guess that TfL might offer a weekend service on the infrastructure it will own - i.e Paddington to Abbey Wood. This mirrors what is proposed for the Overground (Dalston - New Cross Gate). As soon as you try to run on Network Rail or HAL tracks you run into access charges and long standing possession rules that are there for engineering and inspection purposes.
We know the owners of Heathrow are playing games about the level of access charges for Crossrail trains into the airport. Their initial attempt at "daylight robbery" has been rejected but I doubt the issue is resolved. If TfL try to run a 24 hour service into the airport expect the cash registers to start ringing very loudly.
As with all of the above we shall, as you say, get the final position as we get closer to the service starting.
Trains terminating at Paddington in the peak will not be every four minutes - a couple of reasons why this cannot be true. First of all, if they were then you would have 25tph westbound and 24tph eastbound. Secondly, the trains run at 2½ minute intervals so clearly "every 4 minutes" cannot happen.
dg writes: The average interval for trains running at least as far as Paddington will be 3¾ minutes, but I chose to round it up, sorry.
Trains will terminate at Paddington every 5 minutes with a couple of extra services per hour that will also do so giving the occasional 2½ minute gap instead of a 5 minute gap.
It would be nice, for symmetry purposes, if the two rogue Paddington terminators could terminate at West Drayton but there is simply not the track capacity west of Paddington for that to be done and there is really no operational need for this.
In a short response to some of the criticisms, it would take far too long to explain fully but actually an awful lot of thought has gone into this and it is hard to see how to produce a workable scenario that is better than what they have come up with.
Other points briefly:
- in addition to PC's points, there is nothing official but the Crossrail team's thoughts are working on the basis that a Friday and Saturday all night service will be demanded by a Mayor sometime after opening and the system settling down. Realistically it is only expected to operate east of Paddington or - at best - west of Paddington to Heathrow.
- the reason for the occasional Shenfield-Heathrow service and other non-standard services is because there will actually be a high peak and a shoulder peak as well as off-peak and you can't go from one to the other easily without some non-standard workings.
- Not mentioned because it is out of the hours covered but trains will also terminate at Paddington high level in the very early morning and very late evening in order to provide an extended airport service after the main central tunnel has shut down for the night for maintenance
Can Tube Trains be diverted onto the tracks? No. For a bajillion different reasons. 1. Powered by overhead 25kV AC 2. Signalling? 3. Don't think there's any direct links
Toilets? Nope.
With regard to the airport, I think what would make most sense is for Heathrow Airport Group to not run any services (ie hand over the Heathrow Express and Connect) and just levy an access charge. Now I realise this will be a lot, although it's not unheard of for cities to charge more for travel to/from the airport zone. But then TfL can run all services into the airport and charge the same price for each, and people can then use the most appropriate service - this would hopefully mean that more tourists with lots of baggage go on the HEX or Crossrail where there is room, and the locals/workers can use the Picc.
And regarding the name... well all the covered over signs around the network (eg Bond Street, TCR) say Crossrail, so I guess that must be the name. I mean changing all the signs and publicity material because of some dumb plan by a former mayor would be expensive and a complete waste, surely?
My bigger concern is whether Oyster/Travelcards will be valid to Heathrow, unlike the existing Heathrow Connect service.
And why do the lines for the stations at Taplow and Burnham have little red bits?
(I suppose I should read the consultation...)
As for Reading, I have to say that walking *up* from the Bakerloo line platforms at Paddington is a very nice journey as you get to see the lovely roof of the train shed when you come up the stairs into the platform area and it's a short walk to the GWR express section from there.
That does beg the question, however, about Oyster coverage. What zone are you going to stick Reading in? Will pre-pay Oyster be valid on the GWR services i.e. the HST/IEP trains?
Thanks for pointing out about District Dave's Forum. Looks great!
Also. Trains will AUTO REVERSE themselves at paddington using driverless technology. Just thought i'd drop that one in there ...
The red line shows "calls peak only". (For some reason, the key has a green line, not used it seems, showing "off-peak only", and also an unused "6tph" line thickness).
I hope they favour the Heathrow branch more than this, either in all-stopping at the cost of something to West Drayton or alternating stops on alternate trains, other than Ealing Broadway, between Paddington and Heathrow.
Grumpy Anon it's not meant to be used for long distance. If you're at Shenfield, Ilford, Straford, Ealing Broadway, Slough, Maidenhead or Reading there'll be more direct trains to zone 1. All with toilets.
@ ReadingonThames - worth bearing in mind there are also two GWR semi fast trains an hour from Paddington to Reading filling in the gap between Crossrail trains beyond Maidenhead. As has been explained above there are real issues about track capacity west of Paddington due to lots of freight trains and the need to run frequent Inter City and Heathrow Express trains on the fast lines. The answer would be 6 tracks but there is not the space for them through places like Ealing.
@ Silent Hunter - TfL are currently modernising the Oyster system to make it more flexible. This has to be delivered by 2018 so that the system can cope with more difficult pricing rules that apply the further out you go on National Rail. The system will also be able to cope with more destinations than at present. It's entirely possible that there will be no zones beyond Zone 6 and that a revised "by station" pricing arrangement will apply (complete speculation on my part btw!). This would also allow Heathrow to be priced "commercially" as no doubt demanded by HAL / BAA. It also remains to be seen as to who will have pricing responsibility for particular stations. I certainly cannot see TfL setting the fares at Reading! - DfT would never allow that because of the ramifications over a very wide area on multiple franchises. I also suspect that other routes that currently have Oyster PAYG but where fares are "mangled" to cope within the current system structure will be "adjusted" to allow a more sensible pricing (if you're the operator or DfT!). I suspect the Mayor will not have much say over this because it's the TOCs who set (PAYG) fares to Watford, Hertford East / Broxbourne, Dartford, Grays and Gatwick Airport.
Toilets, particularly the wheelchair-accessible variety which are the only type allowed these days, take up a huge amount of space on a train. Most new trains being ordered for inner suburban services (e.g those for the Windsor and Chingford services, as well as the new trains on the Metropolitan Line) have no toilets.
maybe if the incontinence lobby were as influential as the wheelchair lobby things might be different, but the railways have decided, for now that they cannot afford to give up nearly a third of a carriage for one toilet.
@Grumpy Anon
Can tube trains be diverted on the tracks?
No - the Underground works on a dc electricity supply fed by live rails. Both the Shenfield and Heathrow lines use Network Rail's standard ac supply fed from overhead cables, and the rest of the Crossrail network is being built to work on the same system
@Andrew
"what prevents, say, Acton Main Line being designated as an interchange" Probably beacsue there is no other line serving that station. West Ealing and Romford should both be shown as interchanges though, with the Greenford and Upminster shuttles respectively.
Though for me that means Crossrail not going to be all that "excellent" as DG signs it off as.
Though then enters the question... will the station toilets be 'free'/ open at all times?
Surely if you are anywhere on the South Eastern network (as I assume you are) you already can get to Paddington with just one change of trains (at Charing Cross or Cannon Street or Victoria)
@"As if you didn't have enough that side of the river."
perhaps that's why the service pattern will be as it is - both the Shenfield/ Berkshire and Heathrow/Abbey Wood services will cross the river, thereby allowing TfL to tick a box!
However, it is strange that Berkshire will be better served by TfL than at least three London boroughs!
Calm down! Calm down?!
You can if you like...but I can't if need a toilet! And with (so we are told) a increasingly 'aging population' who will have to work on for longer I think more consideration should be given to certain aspects of future 'services'.
Also regarding services west of Paddington, it isn't clear to me whether the Western Access to Heathrow will provide a through link or not. I suspect this is an issue yet to be sorted with LHR operators but it would make sense, once Hex's "licence" expires, to run at least some trains between Paddington and Reading via Heathrow, some of which could be Crossrail.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/dn3a5f
Though then enters the question... will the station toilets be 'free'/ open at all times?
Yes/Yes.
maybe not everywhere in the central section (not sure) which would be no different from London Underground.
There will be toilets at Farringdon which will be an improvement from today.
I do think you are, um, misguided on this issue. Do you seriously think that you would be able to get to the toilet on a Crossrail train if there were one. And if you could, could you then be sure that it was free. Far better to know there is a frequent service and you can get off at a station, use a decent toilet and get on the next train.
If, as is suspected by many, the truncated branch gets taken over by TfL's rail department, then you'll have the odd situation of trains skipping a tube map interchange station.
I do wonder if the services into Liverpool Street NR will appear on the tube map though. They don't need to, because it could be said that all that's happening is the train is not stopping at Whitechapel and terminating early at Liverpool Street. But that might mislead passengers into trying to change for the Northern line at Moorgate (which you can do from the far end of the "Liz line" platforms) and being faced with a 10-minute walk through the station concourse and across Finsbury Circus.
"maybe if the incontinence lobby were as influential as the wheelchair lobby"
Disabled people fighting for their rights are the "wheelchair lobby" eh?
And re the "incontinence lobby" - your comments fall apart with Crossrail: TfL don't need the extra space really do they? the trains are (a) as long as two football pitches and (b) very frequent - meaning that they should be provision for this. It's a sign of modern civilised travel.
Have you traveled with young children? Do you have elderly relatives that go by train? Have you been on a train at midnight with all those people (of all ages) dying to use the loo as soon as they get on?
I suppose all these people (children and the elderly) should just get off at the next stop and find a public toilet somewhere and then get back on the train (and buy a new ticket as well). Same with a wheelchair user - its not right that they should expect that kind of provision is it?
Think of the millions of commuters who could be asked to stand in that space. Have you ever traveled with a baby on a train and needed to change a nappy? The great thing about the toilets is that they double up as a nappy changing area.
In trains without toilets I've been forced to lie a baby down on a seat and change the babies nappy there and then. Too bad for the smell and sight of poo isn't it? Next time I'll say to other passengers "it wasn't right to provide this kind of provision for parents with children on trains, the disabled or the elderly - whilst the train company struggled to make a decent profit and find space for more passengers - so sorry about the smell". As for the late night drinkers, well they should jolly well have a wee before getting on the train and no expect the hard-pressed TOC to find a space in the longest trains in London, running every couple of minutes for them.
re Pedantic
"Far better to know there is a frequent service and you can get off at a station, use a decent toilet and get on the next train."
But you're not sure about this are you? And what do you advise parents to do with a child who needs a nappy changed? The nappy has to be changed or the baby screams? This is a most regressive idea all round - which I've seen you write about on LR. I notice the discussion on this was also closed down. You, like the other writer refuse to accept the needs of the wheelchair users, the elderly, and parents with babies.
This is a democracy. I was not suggesting there is anything wrong with people campaigning for (lobbying for) what they believe they have a right to expect. Nor was I taking sides - and I have indeed travelled with with young children, elderly relatives, and at midnight with all those people (of all ages) dying to use the loo as soon as they get on.
@Gary
"you'll have the odd situation of trains skipping a tube map interchange station"
Not unique though - neither the Met nor Chiltern call at the interchange station at West Hampstead, this being left to the stopping service provided by the Jubilee Line. Likewise, not all met services call at Wembley Park. This is no different in principle from the Abbey Wood - Heathrow line skipping West Ealing and only the Shenfield/Reading line calling there.
Plenty of other examples - not all trains calling at New Cross, Clapham Junction, Finsbury Park etc.
Sooner or later someone at TfL will wake up to the fact that Crossrail is a railway on which two "lines" operate - just as the Baker Street- Liverpool Street leg of the former Metropolitan Railway carries three lines. No-one thinks it odd that there is no direct service from Aldgate East to Finchley Road.
...or better still, in a 21st century, world class, progressive city that London proclaims to be there should be the choice of both options. Toilets at the station(s) and on the train(s)...thus more likely to be able to use one if needed to. Misguided are those who have decided to do otherwise...
I don't see how hard it would be to provision a toilet in the carriage that also has the wheelchair accessible space. What is this, 1/4 of a carriage? A fraction of the train...
And that would mean that people who may need the toilet can have some dignity. Babies, children and the elderly in particular. And imagine the savings on cleanup when they run a night service on it and people have a place to vomit...
Still, who wants a Duke of Edinburgh line split off when TfL wake up to the fact it is two lines as they plan to configure it?
C1 Heathrow - Abbey Wood (4 tph)
C2 Paddington - Abbey Wood (4 tph off-peak, 6 tph peak)
C3 Paddington - Shenfield (4 tph off-peak; 8 tph peak)
C4 Reading - Shenfield (2 tph)
C5 Maidenhead - Shenfield (2 tph)
C6 West Drayton - Abbey Wood (2 tph)
C7 Liverpool St High Level - Gidea Park (4 tph peak)
With this, there would be no lines branching out or trains terminating earlier than others, because all services have different identifiers. If this is too much for TfL, they could try grouping C1, C2, C6 and C3, C4, C5, C7 to two lines.
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