please empty your brain below
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Recently I tried to touch in with my wallet, containing an Oyster and a contactless debit card, and I got an error message telling me to use one card. So the ticket barrier can actually help you avoid card clash, as it refuses entry when more than one card is detected.
(On the other hand, the weekly price cap, if it works as you described, will solve this problem, as I can freely ditch the Oyster and just use the bank card, as I will be charged exactly the same amount.)
Greg | 26.07.14 - 12:43 a.m. | #
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It would appear that 'contactless' relies on an awful lot of 'touching'!
Steve | 26.07.14 - 1:00 a.m. | #
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In Seattle, for their rail system that runs from the airport to downtown, they have a peculiar system of just assuming you've paid the fare, but there is no exchange of ticket or anyone watching. The way it works is that IF you fail to produce the purchased ticket stub, then you are fined $200. But if no ticket warden comes through and checks, in theory one could ride for free.
I thought it peculiar system of trust. I never say any ticket wardens in my trip and I haven't heard any stories about what happens if you fail to produce a ticket.
John | Homepage | 26.07.14 - 3:00 a.m. | #
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a few years ago I received a contactless creditcard and then my Freedom Pass stopped working. it was some time before I connected these two facts, but when I put the credit card in the other side of my wallet so I could easily use the Freedom pass separately, I had no further problems. this must have been an early example of Card Clash, before the term was invented
amber | 26.07.14 - 6:54 a.m. | #
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Beware if you have two cards on the same account. My wife has a card on my account with the same number - I'm the main account holder.
My card doesn't work in the TFL trial and it doesn't work on the buses, nor even at the CO-OP for a pint of milk, but hers does. In fact I used hers for contactless payments on the underground during the trial.
I had the cards changed, but same result.
Running Corespondent | 26.07.14 - 7:06 a.m. | #
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With auto top up, TfL always has some of your money in their bank account to pay for journeys you have not yet made. With contactless, the money stays in your bank account until after you have made each day's journeys.
Brock | 26.07.14 - 8:12 a.m. | #
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I've nothing against contactless bank cards - they're the best thing to happen to pubs in a long time - but I won't be taking them up on it unless I forget my Oyster at home. I just don't want to take my bank card/wallet out of my pocket more than I absolutely have to. The Oyster sits in its own little folder and comes out as needed. If I lose it, I'm only out the credit that's on it (maybe, sometimes you can cancel it fast enough to get that back too) and it's quite easily replaced. You can't say that about a bank card.
Chz | 26.07.14 - 8:12 a.m. | #
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If there are multiple cards on the same bank or credit card account, each card has its own unique identity which links it back to the account number. TfL presumably uses the card ID for contactless payments. Otherwise joint account holders who are travelling together would have problems when the second cardholder tried to touch in.
Brock | 26.07.14 - 8:17 a.m. | #
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If I recall correctly, when tfl first introduced Oyster they met a lot of "heels dug in" resistance from some of the rail companies. (Did someone say SouthWestTrains?).
I wonder if this dynamic is in play again, with tfl announcing this now to try and force the recalcitrant rail companies to join in.
IslandDweller | 26.07.14 - 8:41 a.m. | #
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I think it is worth saying that people travelling via non Z1 routes, with lower fares, using a CPC also have to touch on the pink route validators. I do wish TfL would make this clear rather than saying just touch in and out.
A couple of other aspects that aren't clear yet. There are special transfer fare between trams and some buses at New Addington. These work on PAYG Oyster but it's not clear if they will work with CPCs. Hopefully they will.
One other tram peculiarity is that if you change trams you are supposed to touch in again and provided it's within 70 mins you aren't charged for the second trip. Again not clear if you do or do not do that with a CPC.
Reading the press release I assume that bus and tram capping also starts on 16 Sept but this is not overtly stated. There's just a mention about different caps for different modes / zones in the footnote. Much of the media coverage yesterday assumed buses would not be part of the scheme but I think that's been corrected.
Reading the trial feedback on the Oyster-Rail website shows that the on line account facility is clever. It allows you to tell TfL where you touch in or out if there's a failed transaction and max fare charged. The system can also "auto complete" missing validations if a journey appears to fit a regular pattern of trips. The system can also spot where out an outward and return trip get erroneously linked together if someone travels through an OSI at their destination. That's neat.
Based on trial feedback the way the weekly cap apparently works is to add up your daily charges and if they exceed the weekly cap then TfL credits your bank account with the difference.
One further thing is that the press release said that even if you have not registered your card with TfL there will still be a 7 day window to log on to a website to check journey details and charges. If there are any errors you can update the info. People with a TfL account will have access to up to 12 months worth of data - much better than the current 8 weeks. I assume this might have something to do with being able to retrieve expenses data for HMRC (a guess on my part).
@Island Dweller - I suspect TfL have simply decided they can't wait any longer and have opted to go ahead without the TOCs. The scheme is already over a year late. There was a bit of blogosphere speculation that TfL may have used the launch to "bounce" the TOCs into getting serious. The ironic thing is that all the relevant TOC services are covered in the trial so the functionality is sitting there, switched on and working. Whatever concerns the TOCs may have about money, settlement, data etc must have worked through to some extent by now. In other words I assume TfL have paid them for journeys made by trial participants and shared the relevant journey data. Perhaps some new concerns have arisen? Who knows.
Naturally enough London Travelwatch duly chipped in and said the absence of TOC services would be "a recipe for confusion" - slight understatement there. This is almost back to the bad old days of "LT Cards" with a ticket range that isn't valid on the rail network. I don't see how TfL can apply a full daily or weekly cap based on the Travelcard price if rail services (excl London Overground) are not part of the scheme.
PC | 26.07.14 - 10:08 a.m. | #
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Re ticket inspectors - on busses, where contactless has been in use for a while, inspectors evidently have a way of checking you've paid (I've experienced it). I suspect though it's easier to check when everyone has to have touched in on that specific vehicle, vs checking the entire network.
Choirgirl | 26.07.14 - 10:10 a.m. | #
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If...and I not done the sums yet, TfL can "save" more money by getting rid of Oyster than going "cash-less" on the buses...then what do we all think is going to happen?
OnTheBuses | 26.07.14 - 10:34 a.m. | #
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Slightly OT but is anyone else fed up with the "You can no longer use cash on London buses..." message that is still playing regularly on buses?
Presumably if you are on the bus hearing the message, you have already successfully negotiated the "no cash" thing!
CornishCockney | 26.07.14 - 10:41 a.m. | #
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@CornishCockney Yes, I am fed up of the announcements, but they are thankfully less frequent than the "From the 6th July" ones.
However when one comes on, I am the crazy person sitting there shouting "But everyone here knows that, or they wouldn't be on a bus!"
Reminds me of a poster inside a First bus that told you how to get on a bus...
Kirk | 26.07.14 - 12:11 p.m. | #
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Kirk I do the same - only quietly. And look knowingly at my fellow passengers - some of whom do actually look back!
Cornishmonkey | 26.07.14 - 12:18 p.m. | #
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Although tfl have to pay a company to run Oyster cards they have the advantage of keeping millions of Pounds on mislaid and forgotten cards. There must be a fee payable for contactless transactions too so I'm not sure there is a great saving.
Is this a step towards making the tube cash free in the future?
Martin | 26.07.14 - 12:39 p.m. | #
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@Choirgirl
"on busses, inspectors evidently have a way of checking you've paid. I suspect though it's easier to check when everyone has to have touched in on that specific vehicle"
As I understand it, the inspector can get a printout of all the cards that have been used to pay fares on that journey. Essentially the same data that is downloaded to the accounts system at the end of the day.
You can't pay for two fares with one card at the same time, but I don't know what happens if two of your journeys on the same day happen to be on the same vehicle. (the probability of this happening on a simple "allez-retour" journey is of course inversely proportional to the number of buses working the route.
timbo | 26.07.14 - 3:02 p.m. | #
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So how do I get my Gold Card discount?
Andrew | 26.07.14 - 5:54 p.m. | #
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Andrew, you will still have to use Oyster - see
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/is-contactless-for-me#on-this-page-7
Brock | 26.07.14 - 6:23 p.m. | #
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I have an Oyster card. It is topped up using a contactless credit card. So, TfL know that both those cards are me. If I keep both those cards, and none other, in a wallet, surely TfL know that they are the same person, thus reducing any potential card-clash issues?
And one point of fact: if your card is not contactless, call your bank, explain that your current card is "very worn and sometimes doesn't work", and ask for a replacement. You will get one, it will be free, and it will be, assuming your bank does them, contactless. Nobody will check how worn your card is.
James Cridland | Homepage | 26.07.14 - 6:36 p.m. | #
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I don't like it. It sounds a dog's dinner of a system. It's another case of doing something just because it's possible, even though it's a backward step. It's like those dreary ultra slow motion replays in sport because they have HD. I just think, get on with it. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I have a contactless card, which I never asked for by the way, and it now becomes a nuisance. As if we didn't have enough drivel and palaver shovelled over us.
Feargal | Homepage | 26.07.14 - 6:58 p.m. | #
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@ Timbo - I can't see that using the same bus twice in a day would cause any issue. The data will record you've boarded either at different stops or different directions or different times. In terms of calculating payment it's not an issue AFAICS.
The only issue I can see is whether the reader on the bus is clever enough to stop someone tapping with a bank card for themselves and then touching again a few minutes later to, say, help someone out who has cash but no card. This would rely on the reader having an active memory given the bank card isn't written to so normal pass back checks aren't feasible.
PC | 26.07.14 - 8:05 p.m. | #
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Feargal - Thank you.
My thoughts exactly, but articulated better than what I could.
Chris | 26.07.14 - 10:40 p.m. | #
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@ James C. Since TfL is aiming to reduce the amount of data processing (and therefore transaction time) at the gates, I think they will continue to expect an unambiguous signal from a single card. However, the back office may be able to make the connection between cards, and this could potentially help sort out occasions where different cards are used at the start and end of the same journey, or an ad hoc trip is made on a contactless card by someone who also has a valid travel card on Oyster.
Brock | 26.07.14 - 10:45 p.m. | #
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I have a monthly travel card on Oyster and want to continue using that, thank you. I do *not* trust the capping. Yes, it's a great and oh so noble idea, but no, not really. It just waits oh so patiently until you make one little mistake and then "ooooh one zone more? I guess I'll cap you higher this week!". No, no, no! I want proper "unlimited" travel and am willing to pay for the peace of mind. I am very afraid they try to change everything to capping.
| 26.07.14 - 11:23 p.m. | #
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When work brings me to London I generally come armed with a travelcard, bought in advance with my main return ticket to the metropolis. Never needed to bother with an oyster, never needed to pay anything at any barrier or when boarding any bus. It's really convenient, so I hope they are not planning to screw travelcards up in any way? Are they?
Stilted Banter | 27.07.14 - 1:31 p.m. | #
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TfL aside, I cannot understand the reluctance to migrate to contactless cards. They're quick and easy to use (more so than cash in general), I get a statement of every transaction (not the case with cash), and the issuing bank has liability for any fraudulent activity (not the case with cash). (Assuming of course that I am not negligent - but in practice the banks pretty much always pay up unless people have been *really* stupid.) The cards are small and light (not the case with cash.) So what's not to like?
Tim | 28.07.14 - 12:14 a.m. | #
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The card clash thing is annoying. I've got too many RFID cards (not just contactless) in my wallet to make it practical.
But things like Barclays bPay might be interesting - it's a wrist band with a little prepaid contactless card built in to it.
They have been promoting them at festivals and things they are sponsoring, but you don't have to go to the festival to get one of these.
https://bpayband.co.uk/
Just fill in the form, then it turns up in the post. Register it, stick some money on it (auto-topup optional), and voila! you have a less annoying contactless payment method, with no card clash. The only slight downside is they seem to expire after a year or so, so not sure what they'll do about renewals.
The band itself only has a short ID code, but once registered, you will see the "long" MasterCard number needed to register it in TfL's system.
RobL | 28.07.14 - 8:52 p.m. | #
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