please empty your brain below

New Coke. New Labour. Both precedents in that old "New" rebranding tactic. Tread carefully, TfL.
Whenever the word "iconic" crops up in a press release or piece of PR guff, you know the person writing it hasn't an ounce of understanding what the product is really like, or what it stands for (or what the word iconic really means, for that matter). Their next task will probably be to pen you a burbling invitation to plug their product on your blog...
he "New Routemaster" is excellent.

Try it, you can't fail to be impressed
I look forward to the day when these uncomfortable buses become "Old Routemasters" and get taken out of service.
Here in the blasted wastes of the North, my local service, the 437, received a fleet of new buses. These have leather seats, hybrid engines and free onboard wifi.

But they don't have a door at the back, so presumably Boris thinks they're rubbish.
Whilst the New Routemaster looks nice, and it's great having two sets of stairs and jump-on, jump-off capabilities.

Actually sitting inside the bus upstairs seems a lot worse. You can't see out properly like you can on "normal" 21st centuary buses: they seem like mobile prisons.
They're only 2 person buses a few days a week now. I understand the second person has been taken off the 24 at weekends as from 7/12 and the 390 is only dual crewed M-F daytimes as is the 9. Only the 11 retains crew operation during the day at weekends.

The 148 converts in Feb and AIUI will be one person operated at all times.
I can't see why it can't be called a Routemaster, there were several different buses called routemasters over the years. It's just a name.
Borismasters is the name that's stuck.
Love it when the charging engine stops then the bus just glides away from the bus stop. Like the old Trolleybuses.
Perhaps it's because I don't have an anorak that I really couldn't care less what a particular iteration of a bus looks like. Obviously, this is pedants corner today.
it be like the Mini ...there is the (old) Mini ...the classic one from that movie ...an then there is the (new) Mini ...you know the one, the one made by a well known German car maker. Truth is this is a (new) British made bus for London. We spent so many years having brought new buses for elsewhere that we almost forgot how to make them. Perhaps, and I remain no expert, they should have designed a alternative version at same time based on it which could be sold in other counties & countries?
Of course it will not be a good ad when people from aboard travel on it in summer and find it uncomfortable due to it's "air-con". With a little thought and will-power this vehicle can be a winner...even more so than the (old) Routemaster...that would pay the ultimate dues for using the name (new) Routemaster.
I'm waiting for the glorious day of the next Mayor of London who is highly likely to cancel further orders of these follies which are not Routemasters.

This - frankly - seems to be a desperate attempt to try and justify them better to the electorate. And no doubt has Boris's cold, cynical and manipulative hands behind it.

It's quite clear he's playing a game at the minute of "how do I get back into Parliament and into proper power" and being able to say "Hey I built a new... ROUTEMASTER!" will go down very well with the duffers in the Home Counties. "Hey, I built a... NEW BUS FOR LONDON" simply doesn't work as well for his electoral message.
Sorry, I can't believe I wrote duffers. I do apologise. I do, of course, mean "Conservative core voters".

Who are, of course, duffers.

Oh my word, I've done it again.
...totally off subject, but i think i once had a "duffer-coat" ...was there such a thing?
If Ken Livingstone had introduced them then we could have called them Newtmasters!


At "Agent Z"
"The "New Routemaster" is excellent. try it, you can't fail to be impressed"

I did try it, and I was very successful in failing to be impressed.
Overweight, full of hot air, not much room on top, a lot of noise - and his buses are just the same.

Since TfL own the "Routemaster" trade mark (UK2488233) it is up to them what can be called a Routemaster. But the new one lacks the design philosophy of the original, which was the really revolutionary thing about it, being of modular construction so that different variants were easy to produce and maintain on the same production lines (hence all the RML, RMF, FRM and other variants).
@ E 1242 - err the majority of buses in the London fleet are made in the UK. Alexander Dennis provide Enviro model single and double decks including hybrids with the latest technology. Wrights of Northern Ireland body hundreds of double deckers on Volvo and VDL (formerly DAF) chassis. Volvo no longer make chassis in the UK but their partnership with Wrights is extremely successful with thousands of buses sold elsewhere in the UK and Hong Kong and Singapore. Optare are another UK based manufacturer who also supply buses to London but in smaller quantities. They're owned by an Indian business now but were originally a UK owned business.

There are other chassis and makes (e.g Mercedes) but they make up a smaller proportion of the London fleet.

I'd argue one thing the UK has not forgotten how to do is build buses or how to sell them in the UK and Abroad. I am very doubtful that the "New Whatever it is Called" will garner sales outside of London simply because the current configuration is too specialised. A more generic application using the clever hybrid technology might work but Wrights have to work out how to make one with full chill air conditioning for Far East markets. Alexander Dennis have won large sales of their updated double decks in HK and are already working on a new "all electric" double decker model. I expect it to be trialled in London.
When it came to Poland as part of the UK Government's GREAT Campaign, the export sales angle collapsed straight away because the bus is simply too high for Continental European roads. Re-designing it to sit 8" (20cm) lower is impossible - what's needed is not a New Routemaster but a New Lodekka.

The New Routemaster, by the way, was a hit with the Polish public and with public transport authorities - but the height issue is insurmountable if the bus is ever to be an export success for the UK.

(Photo of bus in Poland here... http://jeziorki.blogspot.com/2013/08/radom-air-show-taster.html)
"From Saturday bus route 390 will become the fourth in the capital to be served entirely by New Routemasters"

Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 11 see conventional deckers working on and off the N11?
Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 9 see some of those old Routemaster things?

So surely it's the second route to be entirely served by the piles of c**p, sorry, new Routemaster?
@PC / Michael Dembinski
Indeed, one of the reasons most buses for the British market are still built in Britain is because they exceed continental height limits and therefore can't be driven here from foreign factories. The converse explains why British railway rolling stock manufacturers have little success in the export market.
E (12:42) mentioned the Mini being made by a German manufacturer. Cowley may be owned by BMW, but last time I looked, it was still in Oxford.
Whether the NBFL/New Routemaster/Borismaster is a good or bad thing, the idea that London can't have its own bus is a bit bizarre, when you compare the cost of designing this bus with say a new Underground line or Crossrail. And if Ken had proposed a bus employing extra staff, I'm Bob Crow would have been the first to praise it!

NBFL was always a bit of an odd name, I'm surprised they didn't have a competition to name it.
timbo | 07.12.13 - 4:28 p.m.

When I go on the "Old Routemaster" now it seems claustraphobic and decrepid. It was in it's day the enemy of the Trolleybus enthusiast. A vehicle that was clean quiet and smooth just like the "New Routemaster"

I suspect this thread like others we've had on cycling recently is some peoples excuse to politicise and slag off Boris.

He has done a great job for London - Good old Boris!
LOL @ blinkered Boris cheerleaders spammin' up the comments today. Although I'm becoming increasingly convinced "Agent Z" is a very clever and subtle troll.

Incidentally, no, there has only ever been one bus called "Routemaster", although it was produced in several different variations. There are many buses which people unfamiliar with such things erroneously call "Routemasters" from time to time, principally the RM's immediate predecessor, the RT (actually a "Regent").

Here's a sensible article, from the ever excellent London Reconnections, about why the NBfL is a wasted opportunity and not even close to being a successor to all the things which enabled the RM to last so long. Interestingly, one of the alternatives mentioned in the article, electric buses, later appeared in Ken Livingstone's manifesto. Needless to say, a bus which would be more than negligibly greener than existing modern models has yet to materialise.
It isn't a 'routemaster' unless you can jump on and off the back any time you want. It's just 'a bus that mostly looks like a routemaster except with added H+S cotton wool'.
When route 10 (itself formed by a plsit of the 73 in 1988) was again split into in 2003, the "rump" 10 went over to OPO but the other part remained crew operated for another eighteen months. That route was the 390, which therefore became the very last new Routemaster-operated route, at a time when they were rapidly disappearing from other routes.

For all its hybrid technology, an NBFL has worse fuel consumption than the Routemasters in the final, re-engined configuration.
6.74mpg (in service tests on route 38 - little better than half the 11.6mpg claimed during the design process)https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/guidance_for_second_crew_member
vs
8mpg (TfL press office)
(See Andrew Gilligan's article here
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/replacing%20the%20routemaster%20-%20oct%2005.pdf
You cannot use the word "new" forever,
@ianB
when I said "which therefore became the very last new Routemaster-operated route" I meant it was the last new route to be launched with (the original) Routemasters. I am aware that the 390 is also (currently) the last route on which "new Routemasters" have been introduced.
Graham: That is not, nor has it ever been, the defining feature of the Routemaster. The RM was just the last London bus - of a long line - to be fitted with an open rear entrance, and the only reason it even had one in the first place is because its development process was so painful and protracted that by the time it finally went into production it was already running several years behind contemporary standards.

Much like the NBfL and its supposed fuel efficiency, in fact!
Urgh, the usual rubbish from the loons who hate Boris so much they can't think straight (though perhaps the anoraking about buses is enough of a clue as to their mental state).

In the 2008 election, Boris ran on a manifesto that included a new bus for London. That commitment was not buried in the manifesto, it was a major plank of his campaign. Over a million people then gave him their first preference votes and he won comfortably. He then won comfortably in 2012 as well.

So comfortably in fact, and I know this will pain you swirlythingy, Andrew et al, that both times he ran he won both more actual votes and a greater share of the vote than Ken did in his best showing.

In the UK Parliament we have the Salisbury Convention, which recognises that manifesto pledges are special due their more direct link to the votes of the people than other policy initatives. Maybe we should have a similar convention for the devolved government of London which stipulates that the blogosphere should bleat less about the enactment of manifesto pledges than of other policies?

Finally, I doubt very much that Ken would have had the good grace to keep as his Commissioner for Transport a man who is competent but who has been a life-long supporter of the opposite party. Giving plum jobs to his corrupt mates was more in keeping with his own unique style.
Chris. I would be wary about talk of cronies and manifesto pledges if I was you.

Maybe you have forgotten the six months of 2008 where it seemed one of Boris's deputy mayors was forced to resign every month.

And as for manifesto pledges... hint. Every politician breaks more pledges than they make. Trumpeting delivery of a despite and expensive bus when Boris has failed to deliver a tube no strike agreement, any worthwhile housing policy, and is closing fire stations and ticket offices he said he'd save...
Oh yes, Ken broke manifesto pledges too. So will the next mayor. But it is what they deliver that counts

Interestingly at the time of the 2008 election BBC News did some surveys of bus users. Most of them didn't care one bit what type of bus came as long as they could get on it and could get a seat. Do a mass poll of bus users on whether they want New Bus for London or not and I strongly suspect most would simply not care one bit.
[Makes mental note to stop doing long comments on my phone. Blooming predictive text and small text entry window...]
I rather liked the bendies, but I know I'm in the minority there.

They're just a bus. Why the fuss? The next mayor, of any ilk, won't stop ordering them because most of the costs are sunk. They don't cost appreciably more than any other hybrid DD once you take the design and start up costs out.
@ Chz - I think we need to actually see how the NB4L performs in service across a range of routes and then try to reach an objective (!) assessment about things like fuel consumption, environmental performance, customer reaction. I would expect the next Mayor (assuming it's not Boris) will not tie themselves to a particular type of bus. Given the past electioneering practice they'd be mad to get themselves "caught" on that sort of hook. I believe the NB4L costs about 10% more than a conventional hybrid although the nature of the deal with Wrights makes a true comparison a bit difficult.

We should recognise that technology is moving ahead quickly and some of the vehicles under development should perform better than the NB4L. I'd expect operators and TfL would wish to take advantage of those gains. TfL have already said that they will trial new "all electric" single and double decker buses in the near future. TfL has an important role in pushing development of bus designs because of the scale of its purchasing power through the tendering process. All bus manufacturers targeting the UK will build prototypes to TfL spec for evaluation.
I like riding on buses. I like riding on the new bus. I like riding on the original Routemaster too. I liked riding on trolleybuses - and the New RM feels like a trolleybus, especially when you are on top at front. 'New Routemaster' is fine, I like it and it's Good Marketing for tourists. I like tourists. I like London. No, I love London. I liked Ken, a bit. I like Boris, a bit. I like life. But then, I'm retired. Ha-ha. Busy though. I like busy.
notice the closed rear door on the picture...first day in service. is it due to it being very cold? no. is it due to it being hot outside and keeping the air-con coolness inside...no. could it be that the cost of paying someone a decent wage to be a "customer assisant" has been overlooked...maybe.
PC - another key metric is staffing costs, and it will be this that will be something interesting for future mayors who will inevitably face yet more calls to cut costs.

With having a second member of staff costing roughly £60,000 per bus per year, New Bus for London is at an immediate and severe financial disadvantage compared to its competitors. Across Boris's promised 600 buses, that provides an annual running cost of £36m for the whole fleet - more if the bus gets extended. Expect a future mayor to look very closely at severely reducing or axing the second member of staff, and closing up the open platform when not at a stop.

The other problem for consider for NB4L compared to competitors is that it has is that it has limited resale value. I was told at a recent bus open day that the oldest buses in Merton bus garage tend to be 7 years, and then they're pretty knackered (London is a hard place for a bus) so are shipped off out of the capital for an easier retirement. NB4L is highly unlikely to find its way into many non London fleets as most operators don't want two doors, yet alone three. And as for three staircases.

The current mayor has created some serious questions for the next one, whatever hue they may be.
I rest my case!
@ Andrew Bowden
...i guess you meant to say two staircases, altho i do get your point.
perhaps there is a hidden "Routemaster gene" and these buses will provide service for upto 40 - 50 years? time will tell
IanB - why can't you use the word new forever. After all Newtown in Wales was founded in 1279 and New College in Oxford in 1379.
Andrew
The buses in my area (Metroline mainly) have tended to last 10-12 years, and many of them have effectively gone straight to scrap then anyway).

London buses, even conventional double deckers, aren't ideal for use outside London, due to twin doors, the wheelchair ramp on the middle door, the straight staircase. But then London should by buying buses for itself primarily.
Cheap jibe:

For all the talk of sales to other markets outside London, we should remember how many places bought Routemasters as new when they were on the open market.

Er, only one, Northern General.

So, if the choice of the name New Routemaster is aimed at sales potential, based on its worthy predecessor, they have set themselves a very low target to meet.

And they will probably fail !
London buses can reach 14 years with a mid life refurbishment - route contacts are 5 years with a potential two year extension, and refurbished buses can do another 5+2 years.
Today in a hurry I got on a number 9 at Hammersmith which turned out to be a NBFL, I try to avoid them but in a hurry did not look before boarding. Still the same small seats on top deck, maybe to match the small windows. I got off before reaching my destination and walked. The bus passed some parked proper Routemasters not far from the Albert Hall.
@whiff - and the New Forest in about 1079 and the New River in 1613
@Ian. Yes, you can use the word 'New' forever if you are a person in marketing. e.g. I picked up a deodorant at the weekend in 'New!' Original Fragrance.

I hate people in marketing.
@Chz. I hate the bendies. Why? Because as 'pedestrian' is my most common mode of transport in London, having a huge metal box blocking my way across the road, which moves forwards a mere 4 or 5 metres in a single cycle of the lights, meaning I have to deviate way off the crossing or wait for the next cycle of the lights is just infuriating. Same with turning into a road from a side when I'm in my car... they are simply TOO LONG for the average shuffle pace of London traffic.
One of the defences for the not insignificant extra cost of the Borismaster was that it would spend its entire working life in London. Digging a little deeper, the working life quoted was 14 years, which is about the same as the off-the-shelf buses in current use. So not exactly a great saving.

And bendies are fine on appropriate routes. As with anything, it's a case of using the right tool for the job.
Absolutely you need the right tool for the right job. Some routes are too twisty, too narrow, too slow.

But some other routes are perfect, such as the Red Arrow routes (521, 507) - wide boulevard style roads, straight routes lots of people to scoop up. Fewer bendies were needed than the single deckers, thus reducing traffic. These were the most perfect routes for bendy buses but because of one man, they're gone.

207 in West London was another one - and funnily enough was the London route where bendies were first trailed using some borrowed vehicles from First.

I once saw the Red Arrow bendies do tube replacement work on the southern end of the Northern Line. They just ate passengers. Most efficient tube replacement buses I've ever seen.
...and now they are utterly wasted doing car park transfers at Stansted and getting stuck between buildings in Valetta.

Now that I've travelled on one a few times I actually quite like the New Bus, but I can't help wondering how much Boris's ego in first giving away and then replacing the bendies will cost London in the long run. And that's before the opportunity cost of, and losses from, building and operating the Dangleway are counted... *shudders*
Metro's TfL-sponsored page today proudly announced that the 390 is the fourth route to have "new Routemasters" - after 38, 24 and 11. Strange the No9 didn't get a mention.

The page also mentioned that route 148 will be the next route to "Go Green", on February 15th. This also needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, as "other hybrids are available", and indeed are planned for introduction on routes 96, 472, and 122 within the next couple of months (to add to more than two dozen routes already operating them).
Route 148 will be the first NBFL route to cross the river: is it significant that it will also be the third to serve Parliament Square?
THC - Actually, the bendy buses aren't getting stuck between buildings in Valetta. All 60-odd surviving bendybuses in the fleet of Arriva Malta are locked away in a compound, following fires on three of them in August this year.

I visited Malta in October and saw the sorry sight of buses whose full service lives in London were aborted prematurely, shipped out to Malta to live out the rest of their days, yet withdrawn for a second time because of the fire risk.

I understand that they are still locked away, to the intense embarrassment of all parties.
The Malta story is an intriguing one. Arriva claim that the recent fires were unrelated, but there's been no formal announcement of what the causes were and even a suggestion that knowledge of the causes could be used maliciously! It's seeming unlikely the fleet will ever see use again in Malta as the government are getting cold feet over it all. Indeed Arriva apparently have been close to pulling the plug on their entire Malta operation, for various factors.

Of course this is just one make of articulated bus. There are others, and by no means do these fires mean all artics are unsafe. Fact is that there are sometimes bus fires. For example, there were double decker bus fires on 27 September (on the M6), 3 October (Didsbury, Manchester) and 6 October (Leyton.)
Indeed, when their combustible nature was discovered, all Citaros (bendy and rigid) were withdrawn from Londn service overnight.

Of course the Boris Monster has had problems of its own - airconditioning being he perennial one (and I reckon insoluble given the big hole at the back) And has the cause of that big crash on the first day of their operation on the No 11 been determined yet?
Seattle's home (a long way from London, but I love reading about London transportation!) Our public bus agency, Metro, operates many many articulateds (your 'bendy buses') and has done so for a very long time. Other than having difficulty in snow and ice, they are a pretty reliable part of the fleet and carry a lot more passengers than a non-articulated (we don't have double-deckers, although our neighbor to the north Community Transit runs their 'Double Tall' fleet). Bus fires are extremely rare here.
@ Andrew Bowden - I am very aware of the potential staff cost impact of the NB4L. However it looks to me that TfL are taking steps early on to limit that cost as much as possible. I doubt it will ever get near an annual cost of £36m. There is no money!

I agree that the NB4L project will leave some interesting issues for the next Mayor - even if it ends being Boris!
Bendies on the 207?? Have you ever been to Acton at 4pm on a weekday?

Granted there have been some improvements and a doubledecker doesn't solve all the problems.
here is the real New Bus for London...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/29229.aspx










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